The X Factor's gift to British democracy
Televisually a far better viewing experience than I had anticipated. In good part because of the crisp handling by Alastair Stewart.
On points its hard to depart from the consensus that Clegg took his chances and gave a consistently competent and relaxed performance. The geography of the line up appeared to disadvantage Cameron in that body-lingually he appeared to be being squeezed by the other two and forced back on his heels.
The prediction was always that the Lib Dems would always be favoured by being there at all. But Clegg ensured they did better than that, and the polls reflect that.
For Cameron, ahead in the polls but not by enough, the pressure was on. His problem is that whilst he did his stuff consistent with the performances that have brought him thus far, he did not manage to exceed expectation to anything like the degree that Clegg was allowed to.
In this sense then, Clegg’s success in succeeding, and Brown’s failure to fail, have left the Tory leader no further forward and possibly, even if not the points loser, the political loser of the night.
The Tories needed to emerge last night definably ahead. They needed to be assisted by a lacklustre Liberal Democrat performance, coupled with a Labour implosion. Both were denied them.
Of the three men, for Brown this was the least natural environment. He emerged even tempered, and never appeared to lose control. It doesn’t seem to leave him much further ahead, but neither does it seem to leave him any further back.
In yesterday’s Snowblog I wrote of the ‘American import’ that the ‘thing’, the debate, represents. The American tuition was evident. Clegg’s engagement with the camera was by far the best – I do not know whose input that might have been – possibly his own. But it was a wise use of the medium.
The most notable American influence in the debate was the wheeling out of individual and anecdotal stories. They didn’t work – they were thin and largely inconclusive, sometimes begging the question as to whether they were true. They don’t seem to work in a UK context.
Whatever last night delivers – the ‘X Factor’, ‘Big Brother’, and ‘Britain’s Got Talent’, had prepared a UK TV audience for its first ever mass engagement with pre-election Westminster politics. Will they come back for more? Those programmes alone suggest they usually do – for a bit anyway.
Related posts:
- Why the TV leaders' debate is not the British way
- A TV debate will not give voters more choice
- Does the whole system need root and branch reform?
- I nearly stripped naked on stage the other night
- Will the great debate happen, and if so – where?
There are 59 comments on this post
A better than expected debate. Also, air traffic completely shut down by a volcano, so our (prospective) lords and masters will now follow your recent path, and learn just how good our railways are. Win, win.
It’s not quite a complete shutdown – apparently it’s advisory.
My guess is, when they’re not ensconced in 1st Class, they’ll still be using helicopters on hire for around £3,000 a day – I wonder who’ll be paying?
In a surreal moment I’d love to see them all using sedan chairs hoiked around by liveried footmen. It would emphasise how out of touch our politicians are.
“………Clegg’s success in succeeding, and Brown’s failure to fail, have left the Tory leader no further forward………..”
Says it all for me!
Jon,
These debates are so important (at least potentially so) and I would be delighted if the debates were shown simultaneously on BBC1, ITV1 and SKY News.
At the end of the post-debate studio discussion chaired by Jonathan Dimbleby on ITV, at least half the audience thought the event had been “historic” and that they were likely to watch the remaining debates.
While I enjoyed the debate, I have to say I quickly tired of the post-match discussions. It was all so predictable – ‘So you really believe Manchester United were the better team, Sir Alex? Switched to Shirley Valentine and saw some honesty.and a reason to smile
I agree about the anecdotes, Jon. I would rather have a leader who bases his conclusions on facts and figures than an impression he got chatting to someone down the pub. I was intrigued why no-one challenged Cameron on cancer drugs which are presumably not available because of NICE. Is he planning to scrap NICE and accept every new drug that comes on the market? If so, how is he going to fund it?
Clegg’s example of working with a group of young people in Sheffield did work and made me want to know more.
Clegg clearly out Cameroned Cameron but it will be interesting to see if he can maintain that over the next two debates. I will also be interested to see what tactical changes they all make, especially the big two in regard to Clegg.
I’m not sure it’s good politics but it’s interesting telly
The anedotes being wheeled out for every question at the beginning were actually sickening and noticeabl forced. Unless I misheard, I believe David Cameron even mentionned a 40 year old man who had come to England when he was 6 and spent 30 years in the Navy. Either we had a habit of employing minors or he merged a couple of personalities.
I wasn’t able to see the televised debate and not sure I would have if able to because as far as i’m concerned, it’s all the same same.
Saying that, i’m happy Mr. Clegg managed to do the best out of the three candidates. It’s time we give the Liberal Democarats a chance in my view. They do have a stronger green agenda than the other two political parties heading for possible victory. Something tells me the Green party is going to accompish its best results in the parties history but not enough.
adzmundo The Venus Project & CND
The genie is out of the box; what a disaster! This was not a debate as I understand it. It was just unreality TV entertainment.
Mr Brown ‘cuddled’ Mr Cleg who ‘cuddled’ nobody. Mr Cameron tried to avoid the slanging match that was a ‘must have’ for Mr Brown but couldn’t; whilst Mr Clegg simply scored points off both for ‘old’ politics.
We know what Mr Brown and his deadbeats have to offer but what exactly did we learn about the difference between Mr Clegg and Mr Cameron? They both seem to be honourable and to differ in some areas that could be negotiated.
For me Mr Clegg could have my vote if he said that he would never do a deal with Labour. But whilst there is a chance that the lying, cheating, sleazy, ‘we’ll put it all right after the election party’ could be kept in power by the Lib-Dems then I’m afraid I cannot risk a vote for him regardless of how good he is on TV.
I was conned twice by Mr Blair before wiseing up and will probably be conned again!
Mr Clegg would be well advised to try to replace Labour as the official opposition first rather than risking a war on two fronts that could maintain the status quo.
Didn’t see it Jonny boy and I’m glad that I didn’t. This one sentence of yours sums up all this nonsense for me.
“Cameron in that body-lingually he appeared to be…”
To think that there’s a whole army of people wrapped up in this kind of nonsense ! It’s a minnie industry. And it’s in danger of becoming a beauty contest you say (on yesterdays blog).
Where America leads we are bound to follow and it sucks.
Hi John,
I agree with you in that Clegg was the clear winner of the night- essentially he had less to lose than the other two but everything to gain.
I know this is only the first election debate- but I can’t help but wonder- why are the three main parties not talking about investing in young people?
From debating education to pensions and not what they are going to do to get more young people in to work, alienating the very sector of the public they complain don’t vote enough.
It seems that people in their 20s are going to be the real losers of this election, irrespective of ‘first time buyers’ stamp duty assistance. We need money first to buy a house. They need to invest in the future!
We are the generation that has massive amounts of debt over our heads because when we were 17 and unable to vote against tuition fees, they were brought in.
Because young people do not vote. In a democracy, politicians are only concerned with people who’s views will be counted in the ballot box. So, they’ll spend endless time talking to Mumsnet and courting the press and sit on the couch of Fern Britten. But they only time they’ll touch on the young is the serving of ASBOs.
I found the debate interesting, although I think 1.5 hrs was too long. Alastair Stewart’s moderation was poor in my opinion.
He was probably working to keep equal airtime between the potential leaders, however I felt his style of shouting over people, and cutting them off when they were saying something interesting totally inappropriate, and discouraged the debate that this medium is here to promote. You don’t see this in other moderated debates such as Question Time or in Ask the Chancellors.
Clegg did obviously come out top of this, but I’m unsure on the other two. Gordon looked smug at times, and some good footage from ITV showed him laughing when one of the others was slating labour policy. I didn’t realise ID cards were so funny Gordon!
I was practically exhausted after C4 news and had to go to bed feeling that I had developed snowflu.
Nevertheless I am up this a.m and not unsuprised to hear and see that Nick Clegg performed well. He has the full package and his biggest European asset, his wife, by his side.
The clips I have seen so far show GB in a natural manner.This was the GB I saw many years ago at some awards ceremony where his sense of humour really tickled me.
The thing about the Tories and David Cameron is that they are still old fashioned ; their campaign is a negative one and I and many others have had a bellyfull of being put down for the last 20 years. He is, as you say, a sweet chap and I think he really means it BUT…?
After Mandelson’s comments just before the broadcast this looks like it was posted by the Labour party.
Margaret, you have, as so often, hit on a key issue. I am willing to give Cameron and Osborne the benefit of the doubt over their integrity and desire to do good, but they always remind me of the well-educated sons of the founder of a company who really don’t understand what they are getting into. Clogs to clogs…
A not which is a negative and an un which is a negative make a positive. Now I understand maths – & – = +
only 58 we can all learn ,even me ..
I’m sorry to say that, political couple that we are, we had to turn off the debate after about half an hour because it seemed that absolutely nothing that had not been said before was being said. We were bored stiff.
It’s impossible for us to like Nick Clegg, because he looks like an ingenue fresh out of drama school who would probably be snapped up by agents quite quickly. He talks with all the confidence of someone fully aware that there is no chance that he will be in the driving seat. I wanted Cameron to be more assertive, since as a former Labour activist, my disaffection means that there is only one party to vote for now. I’m afraid that this disaffection goes so far that the sight of either G Brown or T Blair makes me feel physically sick.
Why not vote Green, Tanya? The party agrees with a tax on land – land-value tax – which would be a replacement (for the wholly regressive council tax, and also for non-domestic business rate) not an additional tax. Some Lib Dem front-benchers are also known to support but appear to have been dissuaded from making this the election-issue it should be, so you’re right in my view to be sceptical of voting for them. All this talk about ‘fairness’ and ‘tax’, by all the parties, yet silence about what has to be the fairest tax there is – and one supported by Adam Smith, Karl Marx and Winston Churchill. LVT would also have the overdue and desired effect of reducing the UK’s obscene property-prices which benefit only the unmortgaged, bi/millionaires, landlords – and the mortgage-lenders and estate agents, of course. If we want fairness, we have to address the anti-social obsession with property and ‘asset’ prices.
I am afraid, I think that all politicans are just representitive of the electorate.
The unfortunate attitudes which politicians echo are derived from the public themselves who put politicians in that position.. they move with the times too , however corrupt . Market force corruption and cunning continues .Until the electorate show some respect for people in general and don’t use bizarre tactics to fight for jobs ,status and money .the situation will not improve I believe in turn the other cheek when possible. It stops angry reflection and a snowball effect of who can hit hardest and so on.Politics is about people not politicans and the sooner we all realise this the better.
Jon a good and unbiassed analysis .What is this world coming to!!!!.
Clegg was by far the best on the night , though he had little to lose .There was just one moment that he got a little flustered over his so called transparency on figures but tt wasnt picked up on .Cameron did well but not spectacular and sounded a little better than Brown but he was adequate,too.For me it took us no further forward and was not vote changing
i have just read that next weeks debate is on “SKY”, so i will not be able to watch it .I will just have to rely on Saltaire
The Sky debate is shown on Sky News, available for free on Freeview, Freesat and is also I believe to be shown free from their website. This should therefore not exclude too many people from watching it. It’s repeated at 1130pm on BBC2 otherwise
Sorry, Adrian, unless it’s on Sky News, I can’t get it either. I cancelled my Sky contract because I was wasting too much time watching golf into the early hours of the morning. Anyway I didn’t think it was worth giving more money to Rupert and his attempt to rule the world.
I get Sky News with my Virgin package and if it is not on there I shall complain loud and long because democratic debate shouldn’t be on subscription channels when it could have been on C4 whose chancellors’ debate, with some audience reaction, was better than the leaders’ on ITV
Nick Clegg undoubtedly came out on top.
Somehow I just don’t see him holding it, Lib dem policy is in places way out of kilter with UK opinion – like for example supporting the Euro – enough to see all that good feeling about Vince Cable go down the tube.
The damage here will be to Labour – because so much of its vote is ‘not Tory’ rather than actually pro Labour.
Watch what happens at the return match, when Gordon’s spin doctos will have the measure of Clegg and briefed him properly. Might be quite exciting telly.
I listened to 50 mins of the debate last night then switched off. But I had heard enough to now believe that for the 1st time since being able to vote I may not be voting Labour but may vote Liberal instead. Apart from wanting a hung parliament my reasons are simple and some may think shallow: firstly out of the expenses scandal the liberals by far came out the cleanest; secondly they are not afraid of change to provide a fairer system and no matter what the other two are spouting off now they were the ones that blocked the proposals for change even when the country was in disgust; thirdly they are the only ones with figures in their manifesto and like them or not at least they are prepared to go some way towards being honest. We will never agree with all the policies of our chosen party but what I want to be sure of is that my chosen party is in it for the people and their country. Taking these 3 very simple facts into consideration, and they are facts, I have to ask myself which party all down the line have been it, and are in it, for the right reasons. I have to be fair and put my labour convictions aside and say Mr. Cleg and his party truely deserve a bite at the apple.
It seems that there is a sizeable number of folk here who are going to switch and ”vote for Clegg’ after a lifetime’s allegiance to another party and one TV debate. Yeah, right.
Funnily enough, even though Clegg came out on top on the personality stakes last night, and I’ve often voted LibDem in the past, I strangely warmed to Brown last night.
It might, in fact, make more sense to vote Labour in my marginal constituency. I’ll certainly consider it more carefully now. And maybe more more tactical voting might come come into play as a result of these debates.
I think it is very encouraging that people are now prepared to switch votes and I do believe that they will do so on the day. Who we vote for becomes very much a cultural tradition by individuals and families and the fact that people are more than ever now willing to go against that tradition is an indication on how ready people now are for change and how braver this desperation has made them.
Its on freeview
thankyou margaret , i know you wouldnt want me to miss it
Still, twas funny watching the other two competing to climb up cleggs arse!!
not as funny as Frankie Boyle last night
Clegg actually demonstrated himself to be a good leader, particularly towards the end of the debate, on the question about care for the elderly.
He said party politics should be put to one side on that issue and others of similar magnitude.
He’s right of course. That’s what we want to see. Co-operation between our politicians in order to best serve the whole of the British public.
We don’t want every issue to become a Punch & Judy style “Oh Yes it is, Oh no it isn’t” knockabout…
Well said – couldn’t agree more.
3 men in grey/black suits!
Caroline Lucas, Green Party Leader, should have been invited and given an equal media platform. As usual, men decide who is ‘worthy’ of media time in politics, and what party. Caroline Lucas, I believe, would have done a great job. We want more women in politics but when we have one, we don’t give her the equal opportunity to shine!!! Surprise Surprise!!!
oh yes we do lol
I’m not sure why Nick Clegg was allowed to play if the game was ‘who is going to be the next prime minister?’
Yes, he looked friendly and like the guy down the pub but was a bit bumbling. Not someone whose finger you would want on the button – or even deciding on schools policy.
Just watched a repeat of Brassed Off. A great movie and a timely reminder of how destructive and divisive a tory government can be.
I heard some news about the BNP tonight, feel quite uncomfortable. Borrow John Snow’s Blog to express my idea, hope Snow doesn’t mind.
Go through the UK’s history: Anglo-Saxons were from Europe, Normans from Scandinavia/France, Jews came to Britain to escape racist attacks in Germany, Poland and Russia, Indians and Pakistanis came to the UK after the WW II to help with reconstruction. All the different races made their own great contribution to the UK. Then, how could the BNP simply deny it today!? And I dare say there is no single person who could say he or she is of pure British blood.
Obviously, the BNP is taking advantage of the recession, more and more innocent British white working class people and the young generations are seduced into the party. Nick Griffin tries his best to make these naïve people believe that the bad UK financial situation is caused by immigration and immigrants grabbing their jobs. But the UK Royal family is from Germany. How will the BNP treat them? Will they ask the Queen to leave? Or are they just anti non-whites? The truth is anti-immigration is just an official excuse for the BNP to practise their racism. (Part 2 follows)
I for one don’t give a hoot what colour people are, people are people : nothing more needs to be said, however what I do care about is trying to get a job for 15years,being highly qualified and experienced, attending literally hundreds of interviews, not getting the jobs whilst immigrants were on the same and better salaries and furthermore becoming supperannuated.,then clanning and ousting us out. We have been victimised!
You are dead on – but as economy is in trouble people turn and attck outsiders – wonder willthey picket the Palce . Anyway a good influx of foreingners is good for the gene pool .
According to BBC website: ‘A Sun/You Gov poll of 1,290 people published on Friday night in the wake of the prime ministerial debate pushes Labour into third place, with the Conservatives on 33%, Lib Dems on 30% and Labour 28%.
‘Applying these figures to the BBC Online election seat calculator results in the following: Labour 276 seats; Conservatives 245 seats; Lib Dems 100 seats; Others 29 seats.’
If that doesn’t tell us we need a different election system, I’m not sure what does
I read the survey too Saltaire .I do not think it shows we need a new system , i think it shows what a fickle lot we are if,as a result of one debate so many have changed their vote .Clegg was clearly the best , but not by that much and there was no detailed look at his policy proposals.
Do the British people want to abandon a nuclear deterrent ? Do they want to get even closer to Europe? Do rhey want to abandon the pound in favour of the Euro .If you look clOsely at the Liberals proposed spending plans , do they add up .I believe the answer to those questions is NO!!!!
Yet they are Liberal policies
Adrian, I certainly want to abandon the nuclear deterrent.
1 It fights yesterday’s ‘war’. It is ineffective against terrorism – who are you going to bomb, Pakistan?
2 We can’t afford it
3 What kind of authority do we have telling Iran they can’t have nuclear weapons but it’s all right for us? At best that’s paternalistic at worst racist.
Anyone who wants us to keep the nuclear option should be prepared for every other country in the world to say ‘if it’s good enough for you, it’s good enough for me.’
Saltaire in some ways i agree with about nuclear weapons,but do you really think it would make us safer to give up ours .If you do, how do you come to that conclusion?? Is Iran likely to give up producing one because we give up .They have tested a long range missile.It was our weakness in the 30′s that made Hitler think he could conquer the world.
You also ignored the other Liberal policies.
Lets face it a vote for the Liberals will give Brown another 5 years to finish his job of ruining the uk once and for all
Saltaire in some ways i agree with about nuclear weapons,but do you really think it would make us safer to give up ours .If you do, how do you come to that conclusion?? Is Iran likely to give up producing one because we give up .They have tested a long range missile,making us vunerable to their attack.I was at sea in the early 60′s during the Cuban Missile crisis ,when we depended on American strength for peace and safety.It was our weakness in the 30′s that made Hitler think he could conquer the world.
You also ignored the other Liberal policies.
Lets face it a vote for the Liberals will give Brown another 5 years to finish his job of ruining the uk once and for all
In the analysis of behaviourism by Dr W Pollett levels of overt anxiety were posited as a bad thing.
Of course they are all slightly anxious, that is normal behaviour.I believe that an element of anxiety can enhance performance as adrenaline carefully controlled can aid the fright an flight response and lift levels and alacrity of argument.
Stop trying to enforce doublethink by supposing that these people are not human.. as long as they don’t fall to pieces they are OK.
None of the candidates touched on something that is important to millions of us – Council Tax, Too hot to handle in any positive way for all three parties.
You might like to check out the Green Party’s policy on land-value tax, Christine. It suggests introducing this as a replacement for the regressive and unjust council tax and for non-domestic business rate. (See also my response to Tanya above.)
You’re right: the main three parties – while talking about ‘fairness’ and tax – , are ignoring the CT elephant in the room. Some Lib Dem front-benchers are known to support LVT but appear to have been forced to zip their lips as their party wonks consider it an electoral turn-off. Shame on them. No-one can speak of tax and fairness and expect to be taken seriously while ignoring the iniquitous CT. Why not ask each of your parliamentary candidates for their views on the matter – and on LVT – before voting? NB I am not a member of any political party.
lets face it if NICE is scrapped it will be a closed shop again for Doctors who want to keep expertise out other than there own universities closet practice.
As A Nurse Practitioner I was very impressed with NICE guidelines and the research based lead given.
These are safe guidelines for all clinical practitioners who are not obsessed with which university they attended.
It is setting up for ‘The Boys’ precedent again and not practice for better care of the patients.
Congratulations on being such a fine journalist.The contrast between the three party leaders at Question Time in the House and on TV is indeed striking, like adders with their fangs drawn.
Away with all but the basic rules say I, plus those governing the English language.We know that fewer is used for countable nouns, like politicians and houses, and less for uncountable, like sand and rubbish.Regrettably they do not.
Tom as usual I probably wrote it and others mismanaged and twisted it, but doesn’t deliberate misunderstanding enter all pathways of politics these days. They used to call it doublethink. That was an over simplification of the stratification in politics and the denial is terribly amusing.We all laugh our socks off.
Following my earlier comment about a surreal moment with politicians being hoiked around in sedan chairs, I went off and sketched it. The sketch can be found at the following URL:
http://steve-willis.deviantart.com/art/Bring-Me-My-Sedan-Chair-161138410
Enjoy! Or not
Belated comment . Watched GCGS- then did look at ”debate ”. It looked so manufactured . Anyway my mind went back to the first I think of these TV debates – Kenneddy V Nixon in 1960 – and the reaction to that . It was broadcast on Radio [ presumably these are too ] but in the light of so many comments like eg ” he loooked ” and body language ” etc – has there been any comment or poll done on those who listened on radio . In 1960 – it was very ineteresting – most of those who listened on Radio thought Nixon had won well – while those who watched on TV – thought Kennedy had easily beat Nixon . Nixon was quite sick that day and looked awful – while Kenndy looked tanned and fit .So could we forget the body language etc and concentrate on waht they actaully say – hopefully it means something ???. The most appaling thing re the debate for me was the talk about this this 6Billion savings etc – while the 100£ billion for Trident which Clegg did bring up – was quashed – so its ok to spend immoral amounts of money on weapons – but hospitals and eductaion must be cut – that is ludicruos and just IMHO plain wrong
It was friskier than expected.
Cameron: you were the future once (I’ve been gagging to say that).
Get the impression that Brown enjoyed himself and is enjoying the aftermath;9/10ths of winning is not losing. Brown could be quietly mopping something (I don’t know what) up.
Brown knows that Liberal success will give him five more years , that is why he was trying to cosy up
There must be something dreadfully wrong with our country when our Unelected Prime Minister Gordon Brown and his Unelected side kick Peter Mandelson are running the country. The political party system obviously does not work and voters have become disenchanted with it. Perhaps its time for a rethink before we see riots on the streets.
When was the last time you heard a Politician say ENGLAND! Are they that ashamed of what they have done to it that they can hardly bring themselves to say ENGLAND.