Looked like a pig, flew like one – did it really fly?
Late last night I was personally contacted by a very senior nationalist source. He was keen to stress that all nine Welsh and Scots nationalists could, and would, deliver an enduring, stable element to a Lib/Lab coalition government. They believe a deal can be struck that could deliver a government with an effective majority of 14.
I am mindful of yesterday’s extraordinary Snowmail thread – particularly the matter of a small nationalist tail wagging the English dog. Tom Wright raises the issues well.
But I have a rare Snowmail confession and apology.
The pig did fly. I withdraw my scepticism unreservedly. Saltaire Sam is right to talk of dignity in Brown’s resignation. When I saw Gordon Brown come out into Downing Street amid “the loneliness of the long distance lectern performer” and heard words that replicated almost exactly those that I had warned he would never utter, I felt considerably chastened.
I also suffered a strange illusion. I thought I felt the heavy hand of Mandelson on my shoulder. Unlike the flying pig, it WAS an illusion. As for any heavy hand from Mr Campbell, there was none. Having survived the altercation with Mr Boulton on Sky (do catch it on YouTube!) immediately before I spoke to him on Channel 4 News, Mr Campbell had the bearing, not of a flying pig, but of a lamb skipping toward an undescribed and entirely unexpected new horizon!
We have said it so often in this past political year: UK politics will never be the same again. We are suddenly in a moment when the Con/Lib Dem pact looks more unstable that the hotchpotch rainbow lash-up that is now in play. But so bad is the economic crisis facing Britain that the ingredients still exist for an extraordinarily stable response to the challenge – one which chimes with the wartime coalition I discussed yesterday.
The excitement is palpable – you can touch the uncertainty, but you can also sniff the relief that something profoundly different will emerge, whatever the detail. I like what Brian Philpotts, Arthur Complainer and particularly Igatz Mice have contributed to our Snowblog thread.
Joy is it to be alive and to be allowed the role of reporter in these amazing times. May Snowblog long continue to be somewhere where, whatever our prejudices, we can share this remarkable moment in the affairs of man and woman.
How serendipitous that Europe should have found some medium-term fix for the Greek-inspired doubts in Europe. The zoom in the markets has eclipsed a few of the lurking doubts here and perhaps given breathing space for the right solution to emerge.
I can’t wait to get to work! Now how sad is that? Not at all! Not this time round. And thanks to Kate Fox’s posting, I now have a serious conundrum – what the hell shall I put round my neck today? Will the decision I make at 7.00am still be right at 7.00pm?! Ties that bind, ties that blind….
Related posts:
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- It's Euro mess for dessert tonight
There are 67 comments on this post
Jon this is fantastic news – music to my ears! I to have been reading the comments on this issue – some with horror – and have stepped back from them. We are at the end of the day one but with our own seperate identities and culture which are important to keep, important to respect and important to not let die. All this it would end up with Wales and Scotland ruling England is a load of rubbish. There was never going to be a problem with them working together and is’nt the reason for all this in the first place the fact that we had had enough of unpropertional advantage? The only fear is will the markets accept?
At LAST-the unelected ‘Sociopath@ has gone. He still lives in the delusion that he ahs done a ‘Good Job’ and served the country well !!! He has virtually bankrupted the country,been part of a government who sent this country into an illegal war,and was clearly out of his depth a leader of the country-who has now thrown his toys into the basket as a spolit child and resigned in a pathetic fashion and the hurt misunderstood child he is !!
Good Riddance !!!!!!!!!
Welcome DAVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lou Evans: I accidentally thumbed-you-up. Please factor-this-in.
My heart says a Rainbow Coalition would be the best solution. And constitutionally their would be nothing wrong with it. I also think that it would have the ethical and moral right to govern as it would be a government made up of parties that obtained over 50% of the vote for the first time since 1945 (Not just in the UK as a whole or just in Scotland and Wales but also a majority of the vote in England as well) And the chance would be for radically change to country via a referendum on electoral and constitutional reform that could not only result in a democratic system without safe seats and where all votes count that would make the political system more responsive.
But my head can see it might work but has doubts and still sees a lot of problems. Do British political parties have the experience restraint and responsibility to form a stable coalition? especially under the huge pressure it will come under with hostile media and difficult economic decisions. Will MPs elected under the current system really pass a bill for referendum that will lead to a lot of them losing their own jobs…..
As any other in any other firm they are going to have too. Even in same sex parties ,opinions differ and this is the type of openess which by needs, has to be displayed.
I am not soft or partisan in this respect. In my profession we have no choice but to be non judgemental and democratic . We morally comprehend that equality and fairness is all and to continue in this way the leaders ought to demonstrate by example how effecient they also can be at diplomatic manoeuvre.
I don’t suppose you have a tie with little pigs on it? Not really your style, though.
What we must look at, is what has this man done for GB the nation? I will say that being a money man himself, he hasn’t done absolutely nothing and above all, it can’t be easy to lead one of the strongest countries on the planet. He has my recognition for setting a timetable for his eventual departure but
the fact remains, that he was never the right man in the first place.
GB the man tried and failed and I think that most of us would agree. The other important issue, is would GB have been voted in by the people in the first place?
adzmundo The Venus Project & CND
Your definition of dignity rivals Tony Blair’s definition of integrity in the upside down world that New Labour has become.
Where are the old Labour values that led to such optimism in 1997?
I did not see an honorable man resign yesterday. Rather I saw a power play by a rather pathetic figure trying to remain Prime Minister until the Labour Party Conference when he can ‘bow out’ to the compulsory standing ovation.
He knew long before yesterday that Nick Clegg would not work with Labour whilst he, Mr Brown, was PM. So what stopped him resigning last Friday if he put his Party before himself.
If this coalition of losers does form a Government then everyone in England will get what nobody voted for!
Interesting too that Mr Clegg’s mantra of transparency in Government does not stretch to letting us know how he is going to ‘shaft’ us.
Jon, I love your Animal Farm analogy. You may have seen a pig (Snowball) fly but Napoleon pig did not because he is still at the trough. Lord Squealer pig, however, goes from strength to strength.
I don’t see this as a great day for democracy.
Yes it was a light, exciting day yesterday. I laughed as you almost skipped toward Douglas Hurd ,, he was taken aback ,and Alaistar was in light mode towards you.
The poor markets have apparently been driven down, but they will be up again at weekend. Impatience.
To be truly democratic it has to be a multicoloured tie and face on.: eventually the dots will join.
The word ‘progressive’ has suddenly appeared from nowhere. I think we would all like to buy into a progressive government…but who would deliver? Progressive and conservative (small & big ‘c’) doesn’t seem to go, does it?
I’ve been wondering about this as well. Its meaningless. Cancer is progressive. As is leprosy. Rock is occaisionally progressive (though not with the same positive connotations).
And its entirely possible to make progress in the wrong direction, to do progressively stupid things.
The sole purpose of the term ‘progressive’ is to infer that the Tories are regressive.
Thanks for the link to Adam Boulton. Priceless.
On the bigger issue, it seems to me that the intervention of people like David Blunkett and John Reid has provided those opposing any lib-lab pact too much ammunition for it to float. And I also think I tend to agree with them.
The only thing that swings me back towards a lib-lab agreement – apart from my old lefty views – is the thought of watching Adam Boulton intereviewing Nick Clegg afterwards
Jon, we could indeed be coming to a new political era.We may even end up with PR. or a referendum on it,pushed through by a Liberal/Labour coalition.
I think the rag bag collection of welsh and Scotish nationalists should beware of an English backlash,if they support a coalition of losers
Even in England the Tories only got 39.6% of the vote.
Lab / Lib Dem Government would have got 52.3% of the vote in England between them (Labour 28.1% Lib Dem 24.2%).
So a majority of those that had voted will have voted for the parties they make up a Rainbow Coalition.
And PR will not be “pushed through” it will only happen if the people vote for it is a referendum.
Patrick i see Chelsea did not win the premier championship this year.Man U and Arsenal got more points
The tie? Rainbow! Rainbow!
Glad to see the predominance of red in your tie tonight, Jon.
Like you, I found Brown’s resignation statement moving, and note also the dignity and love of his wife, Sarah. He’s a very lucky man, I feel.
We mustn’t let the emotion of the political moment distract us from what really matters: the economy. If, as a report I heard suggests, that Ken Clarke and Vince Cable will be working together at the Treasury, then I believe we’re in good, albeit capitalist hands.
I am not suprised your skipping to work Jon, I would be too. You have the best job in the Country, well perhaps you, and you alone, made it the best job in the Country!
The interview with Campbell and Boulton was splashed over facebook last night, personlly I was very happy to see it. I think Campbell did so well to refuse the usual Gordon Brown bashing that goes on. To see the frustration in Boulton when he realised he was not given an open platform to abuse him. My happiness over it sparked a sense of unease, although I consoled myself by remembering how badly Gordon has been treated.
Jon, it’s about time C4 news devoted a program specifically to the “West Lothian question”. Alex Salmond must be splitting his sides with laughter. Not only do the SNP have control of a devolved Scottish parliament, but it may soon have control of the national parliament – at a price. I don’t think that’s the kind of change that people voted for. They certainly don’t want this kind of stitch-up every 4/5 years.
Cameron should walk away from this. Let Clegg whore himself around for the best bid on PR. It’ll get shot down in a referendum after watching this charade.
You may find all of this a joy, but I think the average viewer finds the whole thing pretty dispiriting.
Nick Clegg spent the whole election saying that his party offered a genuine third choice.
He was correct in supporting the Conservatives having the first opportunity at creating a government. His about turn yesterday, following GB’s machiavellian announcement, shows him to be duplicitous, and leader of a party that is not a third choice, simply a different flavour of Labour. If his party was a genuine third choice, there wouldn’t be so much vitriol from lib dems against the Conservatives. Their coalition would be based on rational and objective evaluation of the best thing for Britain, which is a stable coalition, led by the party that got more votes than the others.
The problem for the LIb Dems is that they are a left of centre party and so do not have a lot in common with the Tories. It would be even more unprincipled of them to support the Tories just to get in Cabinet if they do not approve of the main thrust of the government program they will be a part of.
What would the election result have looked like under AV? A useful discussion point for tonight’s programme?
I thought that too – then realised you have to assume you know what every voter’s second choice would have been. Essentially, you could get any prediction you liked if you made the appropriate assumptions.
You can see what the estimated results would have been under different electoral systems on the Electoral Reform Society.
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/news.php?ex=0&nid=469
The problem with AV is that it is not a PR system and can still produce very distorted results (In 1997 Labour would have had an even bigger majority….)
Headline Figures for AV would have been
Con 281
Lab 262
Lib Dem 79
STV (3 to 5 seat constituencies)
Con 245
Lab 207
Lib Dem 162
Pure PR
Con 235
Lab 189
Lib Dem 148
The tie? Rainbow! Rainbow!
how about something a bit Matisse Jon full of energy, life and juxtapositions of many colours?!
Thanks for the link to the Boulton/Campbell contretemps. Entertaining stuff. I hardly ever watch Sky, and had never seen Boulton before. Surely he’d had a few drinks before this discussion?
I have just picked up the Lisbon Treaty needs to be RE-RATIFIED this year!
Is that why Brown, Mandelson and Cambell are in a sweat?
They will do ANYTHING to stay in power so Brown can sign the new ratification… even if it means letting the economy CRASH!
Oh to see Prescott barking away- even if in the end Lord Mandy and Campbell couldn’t pull it off and the parliamentary labour party has yet to be consulted?
So much for ‘internal’ party consultation.
Fresh air is what’s needed for Labour-open the windows!
Scotland Ireland and Wales has lived under English rule for hunderds of years. Sadly, throughout this whole affair there has been a certain race row at the heart of feelings. I really wished people were able to move beyond this.
Scottish Nationalism really wasn’t a powerful force prior to Margaret Thatcher’s government. The Conservatives are still paying for the indifference (contempt?) they showed to Scotland then. For the Scots, being used as trailblazers for the first and most regressive version of the Poll Tax was the last straw.
You are right about moving beyond this but we can only move beyond this with fairness. You make it out to sound as if Scotland, Ireland and Wales should be happy to live under English rule because they have done for years. For a lot of reasons, one of which Paul has mentioned, it is not that easy a thing to be happy with. All these countries ask for is fairness and respect to the level of England. Treat them as valuable parts and contributers of Great Britain not just some by-products of it and I, as a Welshwoman, would be happy.
I personally hope for a lasting coalition of bickering lefties which I believe would be truely democratic and probably govern better than a single party. However Mr Boulton’s rage will not be isolated. The British right are a minority but not a small one. They fear we could disenfranchise them forever. I’ve misgivings about cutting 30%-40% entirely out of power over night, even if I side with the majority.
A Rainbow coalition sounds so hopeful – maybe it`s all in the words we use – but wouldn`t it have to include everyone? This is serious stuff. Could a time-limited alliance of all parties to deal with the present financial situation be the answer? Consulting the electorate about changing the voting system could wait for a bit – no good asking the audience just now.
Just to add to my earlier musing about the use of the term ‘progressive’, I now can’t resist my tuppen’orth on ‘rainbow’.
Nice green connotations with a reference back to the glory days of Nelson Mandela’s Rainbow nation.
The reality will be an unstable mess – a hodge-podge experiment in political chemistry. Adam Dutton has it spot on above. The ‘anything but the Tories view’ adds up to ‘ignore the wishes of a very large minority’. Clearly the people do not agree on the socialist agenda wholesale. Therefore if we are to have not just stability, but legitimate representation of the will or the people, an all out effort to circumvent the centre right’s clear popularity with voters is undemocratic.
I loathe Labour and have no respect for the Lib-whatevers. However, together they polled more than 50% of the votes cast and are similar in ideology. The only way to be true to the principle of democracy is to let them form a government and have a go at sorting out Brown’s horrendous mess. It was going to be a very tough couple of years any way.
I also think that there won’t be enough time to do anything on the Lib Dem PR thing before the next election so any commitment on that is meaningless. Labour prefer FPTP and can then choose their moment before any risk of actual delivery. The next election will see Clegg destroyed and a clearer choice for the elctorate. Then we’ll see,
Cons and Libs …”similar in ideology”! Dear Kes, what planet have you descended from? I would recommend some history books and manifesto reading for light entertainment. But I thank you for the hearty laugh, I had been too tense lately.
Malverde. Read it carefully once again.
I have now, Kes. That will teach me to read with one eye while keeping the other on the TV. But at least I got a good laugh out of my reading mistake!
You’re very welcome to the laugh! Not much to enjoy otherwise.
The dreams of your ‘senior nationalist source’ seem to have been dashed by Douglas Alexander and John Reid’s comments today. Perhaps the feeling in the Labour camp is to let a Con / Lib coalition deliver a verdict on AV? The Labour party could then regroup under a new leader and benefit from the backlash a Con / Lib coalition would suffer having had to inflict so much pain on the electorate.
Wise heads in the Labour party know that there is never any gold at the end of the rainbow!
My theory is that Gordon Brown read yesterday’s Snow Blog and used this as the script for his subsequent ‘forward resignation announcement’. It was seen as a masterly stroke of political genius, but I believe Jon Snow deserves all the credit – is he the real King maker in this Machiavellian saga ?
What Brown REALLY said in his resignation.
Brown…”I WILL stay until September so I can sneak away (AGAIN) and re-ratify the Lisbon Treaty. I have to do this because if Cameron gets in he will probably mess it all up by refusing to ratify until Europe gives some of our Sovereignty back… That will only happen OVER MY DEAD BODY!”
Errr… that could be arranged!
Like other posters here, I did not see Brown’s statement or his intention to hang on as dignified. Without him, positions could easily have been reversed in the electoral results and Labour would have had a very strong negotiating position. As things stand, to cobble together a Lib/Lab alliance, with dissenting voices on both sides would be a disaster AND I believe G Brown to be perfectly capable of deciding that he needs to hang on rather longer after all.
I’m afraid I agree with Malcolm Rifkin that Nick Clegg’s behaviour is duplicitous and with David Blunkett that he is behaving “like the worst harlot in history”.
A rainbow coalition? Dream on – at the end of it may lie fool’s gold! Judging by what I’ve heard all morning on the radio, the Tory bidwigs (Portillo, Rifkind et al) are furious at “two-faced” Clegg & will not be nearly as accommodating if he goes back to negotiate again with them; while Twitter is full of angry comments about the hostility of backbench Labour MPs to a Lib-Lab deal, and senior MPs like Blunkett seem to feel nothing but contempt for the unseemly scramble to hang on to power. They feel they should admit defeat and regroup.
Frankly, I can’t see the LibDem reps (who have to be consulted in any case before any deal can be confirmed) authorising either of the expedient alliances on offer at the moment.
I don’t think clegg has been two faced at all. How could a decision like this be made without thoroughly sounding out both parties? I don’t believe there will be a deal with the Labs but he had to give them their say – afterall isn’t that what we were desperately asking politicians to do? I’m also very disappointed in hearing on the news numerous lib supporters saying that they will never vote for Lib again if the deal is con/lib. for godsake give this man a break – it looks like our political landscape may be changed forever through this man and his team so if it happens lets not forget who got it us. At the end of the day he had no choice but to try the hardest with the makeup that could provide the most stability. The comments by these people are annoying and that is coming from someone who was not a staunch liberal supporter although I voted for them in this election. They get this done though and it is likely I will remain on their side.
As the likelihood of a Con / Lib coalition increases, I hope Nick Clegg understands that the Conservatives are called ‘the nasty party’ for a very good reason. He would do well to insist that the referendum on AV is conducted as soon as possible or he may find that he is bounced into a fresh election before he can blink!
I’m a bit surprised at the anti-Clegg feeling arising because he chose to talk to Labour as well as the Tories.
The man is trying to faciliatate the forming of a government. If he succeeds, presumably he will be part of that government. Do you really want ministers who go into negotiations and accept the first offer on the table?
Less than a week ago, he was being criticial of both the other parties. Some of his colleagues were fighting bitter battles with tories, others were in combat with labour. None of that is easy to reconcile.
Personally, I think he has handled the negotiations about as well as could be expected. To get the tories to agree to a referendum on AV is a major achievement and suggests that we may end with what several of us said we wanted from this situation: a fairer spread of the economic pain and a fairer electoral system.
What on earth were you doing interviewing that political bully Campbell.
Having done so much to injure this country in the past, we find him on our screens again doing his best to drive us all away from politics for ever.
Confine him to the scrap heap where he belongs.
Intersting poll on Facebook with more than 1m people taking part
Asked what outcome they want
42% labour-lib dem
24% tory lib dem
34% new general election
Not sure if this means FB users have a left wing bias or if the third, to me amazing figure, means the tories think that if they had another election straight away they would win power without having to compromise with the lib dems
Saltaire.it just means people like me do not go on facebook
Rainbow?
Usually means; we have been soaked or are about to be.
In Norse Mythology the rainbow was known as Bifrost or the Trembleway. Should we be very worried?
The parliament is hung, I hear,
though “hanged” might suit us more.
The fruits of Labour were, it seems,
quite rotten to the core.
Expenses cheats and flipping homes
did not impress us much,
and Broken Britain needs much more
than a bandage and a crutch
Did Blair’s support help Gordon
With his grinning perma-tan?
Or Ashcrofts millions aid the Tories
Big Society plan?
And will we get the fairness
that the Lib Dems so desire?
Or will Tories drown electoral reform
In the coalition mire?
Will politics now serve us
based on equal social need?
Or continue to be mistress
to the power of Corporate Greed?
Cynics might say it makes no odds
which box your cross goes in;
because whoever you vote for -
the Government gets in.
Typical.
I voted that down..because I could.
Sense that the briefings from Labour sources against a deal are getting louder? I think so!
Hanging Clegg out to dry in a Con / Lib coalition will yield a good dividend for Labour at the next election…
Jon, don’t wear a tie tonight, tell the viewers that you wanted to appear impartial to whatever ‘coalition of colours’ results.
Not flying pigs and completely off-topic but wanted to share this gem from Rupert Murdoch’s mother to her big boy’s biographer: ‘Strange that he’s helping you with this book, because he’s never read one’ (MediaGuardian 10 May).
While some bloggers object to PR and the instability it causes, from watching the action unfold this afernoon it seems to have made politics a spectator sport. Who would have thought it? When did we last see people gathering to hear how a political meeting ended?
Interesting also that I hardly noticed any talk of the election when on buses before last Thursday, but today it was the main topic. Perhaps the public like the new politics after all.
Cameron’s comment from May 2009 seems like it might become highly relevant in the next few months: “there’s nothing worse than a lame-duck government with a tiny majority limping on for years” – http://www.fixedterm.org.uk/?p=15
Clegg’s position is a masterclass in too-much-choice=neurosis. It’s not his fault.
The real shock of the last week is that the Tories have been capable of such class and elegance.
We lefties had better be careful – memories are made of intangibles, and these squalid days make only the Conservatives seem clean. That’s what I call a mandate.
I wasn’t going to blog tonight, but admit that I was carried away with Gordons and Sarahs emotion.
John Prescott was uncomfortable with love, but his insistence in fighting for what he sees as injustice is love.
I was touched and feel slightly bereft. I look to the future but somehow cannot see Cameron and Clegg as filling the space which represents a lot of personal strife ,my deceased mothers heros and a fight for equality and justice.I may be
surprised and will keep faith in love around , however uncomfortable, geeky , syrupy etc ..my fellow ‘closed hearts’ are .
So will floss my teeth, keep swimming, enjoy music and think what unimaginable luxury I am a party to.
I had a dark night of the soul 23 years ago and imagined for a couple of years I was a new born christian.. The minister and his wife said to me ‘ love in this life is a bonus’ that put me off ,as surely the central ethic is LOVE.
Jon
Excellent coverage of the changeover and good spot that GB as going straight to the palace.
May I suggest a black tie for Wednesday night – in mourning for all our bank balances when George Osborne gets his hands on the treasury
Wouldn’t it be great if this has created new found enthusiasm in politics, new found enthusiasm in the running of the country. Maybe this has worked in two ways – it has not only humbled the politicians but re awakened the people into remembering that it is they who have the power to make change happen.
Ref lou’s comment Has anybody ever heard Brown say he has done a good job for his country like other parties like to mention because I haven’t heard it? Although lab I was not particularly a Brown fan but I have just come in from work and heard his speech and it was not one of a man chucking his toys out of the pram. It was one of a man gracious enough to go for the good of his party and one gracious enough to admit to his own flaws.
Well said, Mel! For all his perceived faults, I never doubted he tried his best & he rarely blew his own trumpet. His awkwardness and, yes, gaucheness at times do not make him a sociopath. He just couldn’t act, dissemble & “perform” like the more media-savvy of his peers.