Has our tolerance of war changed?
It is a terrible observation, but with another British soldier killed in Afghanistan yesterday we are two military deaths from 100 service people killed in the Afghan War since the beginning of this year.
With the homecomings through Wootton Bassett and the now ever-present cameras and crowds, these are events rarely seen before outside world war.
I was at Brize Norton once for the homecoming of a British soldier killed in Basra. Only the family, someone from his regiment and the lord lieutenant of Oxfordshire were present. Not any more, these days.
One senses that these very public markings of each death in Afghanistan are exerting there own dynamic on the government – hence the prime minister’s remarks at the Guildhall in London on Monday night and David Miliband to Nato meeting in Scotland yesterday. This is not a “war without end” said Mr Miliband.
Yet today is the very day that the battle of the Somme ended in 1916, not even 100 years ago. It was the very middle of the first world war. The battle had raged for just four months and shed a staggering, utterly shocking number of lives, in excess of one million.
The government continued to send hundreds of thousands of young men to die on the poppy fields of Flanders and beyond for a further two years.
My grandfather was at the Somme. General Sir Thomas D’Oyly Snow lost 4,000 men from his regiment this day alone. One general losing 40 times the UK’s loss this year in Afghanistan, in one day.
In 93 years our tolerance of death on the battlefield has experienced a welcome revolution. Does it mean then that our tolerance of war itself has dwindled? Is a direct assault on our own land now the only cause for which most of us would agree to lay down our lives?
Perhaps for once we should thank the media. Had the slaughter on the western front received even one per cent of that accorded to deaths in Afghanistan, would the great war’s carnage ever have been stomached?
For how much longer then, with this degree of focus, will another war in a foreign field be stomached? Intriguingly I suspect, quite long.
The conflict in Northern Ireland tells us the media come to suffer battle coverage fatigue. Afghanistan may come to suffer from it too. On the other hand it may not, and if that is the case the political clock on the wall is ticking hard.
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Good point about the media helping to keep the losses down, but everybody knew what was happening in the 1914-18 conflict.
I suppose it wasn’t quite so easy to hold Politicians to account as it is these days. There was no live interviewing by Snow, Paxo or Sopel, watched by millions, to worry about during the first World War.
Or Twitter/Facebook and Blogs: they’re making a big difference too..
Competition..!, it is probably an even slightly distasteful thing to think, but in human mentality this is oft the driving force … I am right .. you are wrong stance.
Fervour and patriotism is whipped up until rightly or wrongly the need to protect takes on a life of its’ own.,and with ‘God on my right.’
I am a party to this fear of the UK falling into the hands of the violent as I cannot stand violence. Whilst we have a set of lads willing to display their macho set of principles I feel a lot safer.
You couldn’t pin David Milliband down because no one knows which way the wind is going to turn.
He was quite decisive though in his lack of decision.
I agree with you the media and our democratic process helps information flow. It appears to be public belief versus our defence systems which will have the most weight.
Perhaps we will be better in our own territory protecting our own shores. Like many, my school hymn was “I vow to thee my Country” and the motto was labore et serivere and I believed all this stuff and felt and feel quite emotional about my homeland. I suspect many others do also and they themselves don’t know what is the right thing to do.
Yes, the British are fed up with all the deaths and it’s not just our own country’s loss of life but the whole spectrum.
The wars were created after 9/11. That horrendous day, was perfectly set up, so that people would believe in an armed response. Why are we not coming to terms, with the fact that 9/11 was set up by the U.S. administration?
Gordon, keeps most of us on edge, by telling us that war will continue to keep our streets safe. Terrorists can plot from anywhere in the world.
Obama has just admitted that Guantanamo will not be closed down by Jan 2010. “Come on Mr Obama, I had so much hope a year ago..”
adzmundo CND
To suggest 911 was a conspiracy is nonsence. 911 was the end product of a combination of hate and religious hijacking, brought on as a result of inequalities caused by the greedy corrupt western govenments, religious brainwashers and individual fat-cats. The root cause of 911 and, most acts of terror or war, are all linked to unrestrained capitalism, over population, evil deceitful people in all countries, the human selfish instinct, blatant inequality, political corruption and arrogance.
All Points Bulletin:
Adz: “the British are fed up with all the deaths and it’s not just our own country’s loss of life but the whole spectrum”.
Yes, I am a poor person, but I’ll stump-up 100K to the first person who can make something-approximating sense of the above line.
Caveat – you have to define ‘spectrum’ in this context.
While I am totally opposed to our recent unnecessary adventures in afghanistan and Iraq, I am also nervous about the new approach to military fallen.
I would be a pacifist if it were not for WWII where I can still so no alternative to fighting Hitler, certainly by 1939. If, as you rightly point out, the current reporting had gone on then and Dunkirk had been presented for what it was rather than an heroic escape, might we not all now be in a very different place?
I just wish that instead of going into space, scientists were working on eliminating the gene that makes politicians around the world want to fight and impose their will on others.
People are only too willing to serve in the defence of their ‘home-land’ if it is under threat. Serving abroad requires even stronger reasons to do so. As is the Afghan ‘mission’, it doesn’t adhere to this and, it’s not clear Why this is going on. This is not good for morale either.
With all the greed,corruption & double standards with the politicians, Bankers, & rich elite scum, it’s small wonder soldiers even want to serve this country on their pathetic wages and post war hell.
I think the discussion on channel 4 news was excellent. At last we heard from some real experts – neither of them called Miliband. When John Reid volunteered our troops for Helmund he sent them to the worst place they could have gone.But the government just seem to want to waffle on and have a photo opportunity with Obama- or anyone they can get- in January if possible. So much opportunism and so little integrity.
A vastly bigger media industry, a smaller world and the rise of the middle classes has made war, especially those for invalid reasons, far less acceptable.
Would WW1 have happened at all if the time was now? Probably not.
WW2 was another story…It was the world’s only modern conflict of national and political survival.
But, it wasn’t until Vietnam that the power of the media came into full force, showing the tragedy of an unwinable conflict.
Which makes it all the more baffling how America keeps repeating the same mistake, unless you subscribe to the view that the USA needs an Orwellian enemy to occupy the population and keeping the war industry moving.
Obama says he intends ending the Afghan conflict by the end of his first term. That may be a promise that could ruin his reelection campaign.
One cannot help but consider , the three world division and controller Orwellian view. It fits too neatly , but it was quite forseeable through the eyes of Eric Blair, who looked at political possibilities in the then original structure., which is perpetuated.
It seems as though mankind can not step off the wheel.
Do you confuse two issues? I would/will spill my blood to protect my community, family, country and I believe that most in this country would do the same. WW2 and the Falklands were classic examples of that clear and undisputed threat.
The public do not believe Gordon Brown when he repeatedly says that if we do not fight in Afganistan we will be fighting on our high streets. They know that our threats come from the Bradford, Bristol and Birmingham, from radicalised youths across the UK.
History tells us that Afganistan does not want democracy and an end to the overiding tribal emnities. The only thing they will ever agree on is a hatred of foriegners interfering in their country.
This is why the public refuse to tollerate this waste of life and I hope they persist.
However the world has shrunk since the Somme.
In those days few British people had travelled as far as the Somme. Today many have travelled far further than Afghanistan.
The shocking loss of life during “the war to end all wars” was a disgrace and with even less justification than the current conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq.
So much unseen reponsibility these folks have.
What is the reason for war?? The defence of our country or the assistance of an ally whose country is being threatened.
Neither Iraq or Afghanistan fall into either of those categories. The former, even if it had weapons of mass destruction was not threatening our shores or one of our allies.We were blatantly lied to to justify our invading with the Americans
Again Afganistan does not fall into either category.We were not being threatened by Afghanistan nor were our allies. Maybe there were terroist traing camps , as there probably were in Pakistan, Somalia ,and maybe if not camps,
funds from Saudi Arabia.
We should never have been in either and the sooner we are out the better
I thought we went to Afghanistan to stop the drugs coming in to Europe then it was to free the women from slavery give schooling to children now its to stop terrorist training camps I don’t think brown knows why we are there i think when we do get out give it a year and it will be back to the Taliban in charge And all this blood letting will have been for nothing so many young men gone just names on a wall to remember them once a year
All comments I read are very laudable,but check out history. The Afhgans beat the ‘Great Game” players in the 19th century, they beat all their neighbours and Soviet Russia. Do you want a betting scenario ?
I served my time in Aden – 63-65 – stupid, nothing learned.
Why put English boots on forbidding soil when Drones can police and kill without risk. Why would any-one from a western democracy support Kharzai and his totally rigged election and vested interest in a non solution?
Does any-one know in the UK that the American public have no knowledge of our involvement in the conflict! |Ask any non Politico American you meet – Imagine! Their TV just (like Vietnam) shows US forces winning the war *(occasional shot of dead soldiers for effect).
When will the Court of Criminal Justice – or whatever it’s called in the self appointed advocates in the Eu charge Blair and Brown for warmongering and worse – Don’t think so.
Well that’s my blog.
Barrold (BLX)
It’s good to hear from a soldier and I continue to learn about the attitudes and experiences of all. Thankyou to everyone who is helping me understand my own position in this struggling existence.
The First battle of the Somme ended this day in 1916. There were four in total. As to attrition, how many more body bags must come back before Wootton Bassett stops its daily routine? We have been sold a false bill of goods.
John McCrae said it all in ‘Flanders’ Fields’, hence Remembrance Day
Why repeat this dreadful episode, whilst Afganistan continues to export their valuable commodity of poppy harvests to ‘feed’ the Worlds’ hard Drug requirement possibly more in the Western hemisphere
As in 1914, young, inexperienced troops are being thrust into a totally different environment. The Government may say, (we) have 9,000 troops engaged but what percentage of that number has actual expertise of mercenary/guerrilla experience?
nick price – well said. I sometimes wonder if there’s anyone on this forum who has any sort-of-sensibility. Thanks for disproving my scepticism.
like I said before poppy is as poopy does
The terrible irony is that the opiates also serve to kill the pain caused by war injuries.
I’m afraid the recent “elections” in Afghanistan showed the whole war up for the mess and muddle that it is. I was amazed that, with only a brief hiccup, the US and UK governments rushed back into support a totally corrupt government there. Now it seems that face-saving activities are in full swing. I weep for all the human beings killed and maimed in this ridiculous debacle. It has been said that once war is declared it is impossible for leaders to back down because of pride. What a tragedy.
Dear Mr Martin. I agree with your root causes of war. Your completely right. May add once again though, that 9/11 was set up. The Gringo’s needed something catastrophic and shocking, to be able to excuse war. Most Americans believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed JKF on his own, do you?
Please watch Loose Change 911: An American Coup, there is so much new evidence, which has been hidden from us, till now…
With respect,
adzmundo CND
Of course it was set up. Such an elaborate plan spontaneous.. no not so.
All these high profile deaths and assassinations are suspicious and there will always be doubt in the minds of many, even if full investigations take place.
Adzmundo: nobody takes the JFK conspiracy theory seriously. Anyone who watched Oliver Stone’s film walked out assuming it WAS Oswald and NOBODY BUT OSWALD (a classic case of protesting-too-much).
Those who control the media, control public opinion. Powerful stuff, the media that is….
adzmundo CND
And the irony of the possibility of Russia being involved again.
NEVER A JUST WAR. I note much is said over Khalid Shake Mohammed and Gitmo trials to be held in mainland USA. It all sounds like a lynch mob like a scene from an old Western Movie. I also note the sad and tragic moment of 9/11 is never forgotten and the victims families shown on TV. It was tragic act of terror on mainland USA and must never be forgotten. I am a little confused as we staged 2 wars based on how terror started at 9/11 and used this to attack Iraq and Afghanistan. The reasons I outline below.
What I feel sad about is that we have sanitised and wiped away the death of over 150,000 Iraqis at the hands of US pilots on the road to Basra. This is where US pilots laughed and called it a turkey shoot and likened it to shooting fish in a barrel. Where NO BLAME WAS EVER PLACED. I wonder does the Western Media really forget that those 150,000 souls also had mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and children like the victims of 9/11. or is the US starting the same game of playing victim and forgetting it’s deeds because it is powerful and unaccountable to anyone so far. That it’s deed can not exposed and interrogated. I fear descrimination is alive and well but just hidden well.
It was just a video game for those U.S. pilots Mr Awan. Of course the dead have been forgotten! Stinks to the high skies and what makes it worse, is the fact that we the people, can do nothing about it. No blame will ever be placed, not during our life times anyway.
We must revolt in a peaceful but determined way, if we want our future generations to believe in what we stand for. These conflicts are about big business and nothing else! I personally no longer support Mr Obama.
adzmundo CND
We must introduce a rememberance symbol that stays with us for the rest of our days, not a plastikos poppy..
My love goes to all those, that have died or lost loved ones, due to violent conflict
adzmundo CND
I heard Wooton Bassett’s the third-stop-in-line. You have to ask: why are they there? It can’t be to publicly-weep-and -wail? It can’t be to show-off?
We’re British, right? Have I missed the point? Have I completely missed the point?
Is Britain something-to-do-with not-ostentation, or something-to-do-with-ostentation-to-the-max???
Cubed.
Mr.Awan – good points, but fatally one-sided. I’m the nastiest critic of our Western ways, but we don’t send planes full-smack into crowded skyscrapers.
Before you talk about “discrimination”, consider how those passengers felt…that’s a barbarity way-beyond.
I am a severe critic too but, I also address what others ignore: THE CAUSES of hatreds. Most of which are created by greedy western countries, corrupt rich scum, politicians and biased media like the BBC. People don’t address the CAUSES because they are part of ‘em.
Dear Mr Dicks,
Forgive my ignorance as my schooling wasn’t the best. Should have used “the whole WAR scenario” as opposed to “spectrum”.
My apologies to everyone. To Mr Dicks again: There has to be a full and thorough investigation, into what really happened on 9/11. All my respect to the families of those who lost loved ones on that world changing day.
adzmundo CND
Adz: I know it’s petty, but I believe in getting-things-out-in-the-open. Please explain why you and Margaret Brandreth-Jones insist on calling me “Mr.Dicks”, rather than Phil.
A couple-of-weeks-ago I told her not to get paranoid about something, and the 2 of you have been getting nasty ever since. Are you a gang?
The voters here must be lacking in an ability to understand English. I have noticed, not only on my own comments over time , but also others . The same content put forward by one and then when spoken in the mouths of someone else have total contradictory votes. Isn’t it obvious from this observation that it is who makes a point not the point being made.
Isn’t this the method by which people in the working world become used and abused. Taking ideas from, one putting them down, then using that information or vision to credit themselves with a superior understanding of a position , Then taking the money . This is a living and ongoing type of plagiarism.
The problem is as the wheel turns it will be you or other members of your family which will suffer this kind of theft.
To my mind the Afgan (and Iraqui) wars have been self defeating for us.
First, do we really want another million angry Muslims.
Second, as Michael Clarke of RUSI pointed out, what is to stop Al’Quaida decamping to Chechnya, Sudan, Somalia or any other radical Muslim state when they eventually find Afganistan too difficult (as they have already done in Wizweristan).
Third, both are part of a substantial errosion of our political freedoms.
The problem with ‘freedon’ is that there is a cost, and that cost is ‘risk’ to the citizen. Thomas Rainsford would be turning in his grave if he saw what is happening to this country today.
Surely if we want to defeat terrorism we should address the causes. Apart from the Crusades which are obviously beyond our perview, it cannot be right for the Western world to ignore the UN resolutions critising Isreal, the building of Jewish settlements and the denial of Plastinian property rights, or the plight of Palestinians in Gaza.
I called you Mr Dicks out of politeness.
Phil it is from now on and nice to cyber meet you.
You would be surprised how many people believe JFK was murdered by more than one shooter. He was an uncomfortable President for big business which included amongst other projects, the Vietnam WAR.
adzmundo CND
Adz- thanks, and sorry – cyber is a paranoid place (that’s my problem).
As for JFK, I can’t help thinking we’re ‘led’ to consider some things to be more important/conspiratorial than perhaps they were; classic example – De Gaulle, was that 2 or 3 assassination attempts?
I know it’s facetious, but if someone tried to assassinate me, I’d be posthumously-chuffed, but would anyone care? What if Truman had beeen assassinated? Or John Major(can you imagine the non-uproar?)?
You have to be important, you have to be ‘loved’ before you get all this counter-intuitive pathology-stuff.
You have to be a celeb.
Be Jordan, and we’ll set-up another Warren Commission.
The bottom line is flying plans into Skyscappers is wrong and repulsive, but so is killing in mases with no accountability. 2 wrongs don’t make a right but when we debate and discuss openly then we need to include whole facts rather then selective ones. I ask this why have we in the Western media pressed the delete botton on the slaughter of 150,000 Arabs slaughtered before 9/11. I so no memory of that, I se ample memories of 9/11 and yet both were repulsive and wrong. If we talk about real equality then lets hold all politicians to account including Western ones. We all knowBlair and Bush lied, do we really need an inquirey on what happened when no punishment will be handed out.More waste of money.Lets have a public debate and actually hold a trial where there is real punishment and not people walking free
JS: you seem to be having it both ways. You seem to be saying that the dead of WW1 were extra-special people(they weren’t – they were us in different circumstances) And that we should fear more tv coverage.There was very little HD during the Somme.Which is it – old or new?Which saves lives: journalists reporting or jounalists interpreting?Do journalists want to save lives or read Pathe?
I really do believe that if the ‘heroic’ British media had(another)D-Notice set on them, the youth-of-today, however drugged-up,however-playstationed, however-whatever, would march across the selfsame fields-of-mud as their grandads.And with the selfsame pride.
Nothing changes – nothing can change.
Are we ignorant to, or merely hiding from the true reality of our current political situation both internationally and domestically. Regardless of the arena, our leaders seem to have an overall immunity from the laws they enforce. Whether you are liable to charges in the international courts of committing acts of terror , seems to be determined not by the act itself but rather the reason behind the act.
Immunity from prosecution does not make the use of weapons of mass destruction on civilian areas any less horrific or any less an act of terror. So far the media has done a fine job in keeping the innocent deaths, buried beneath the colour clad coffins of the returning glorious dead. Maybe it’s because there is an opinion that acknowledging the tens of thousands of civilian deaths, somehow lessens the sacrifice of our soldiers.
Selective news, stated disregard for public opinion, the sacking of respected scientists and immunity from international and terror laws. Have we not seen this beast before? Or do you really believe that such a foul thing could not be born from our society?
“Lest we forget”
I have long since wearied of war. It is a banal and primitive way of responding to the challenge of finite and scarce resources. If the human species is really intelligent it will seek dialogue and construct a complex inventory of means for managing competing aspirations. The ethics of alternate means will have to be taught to our children for generations to come. I express my frustration in artwork, my only salvation.