The gulf between the rich and the poor
Nothing concentrates the mind so much as a miss-timed trip to London’s West End on a Saturday two weeks before Christmas. I needed a new printer/scanner and resorted to the ‘never knowingly undersold’ entity having wandered through their website to look at what was on offer. I coupled the trip with a visit to Selfridges to look for a ‘designer product’ for a daughter.
Naturally the density of the surge on Oxford Street was itself a shock. So too were the heaving queues of ‘tanks’ – vast BMWs, Range Rovers, Volvos, Mercs and the rest jostling for space in attendant underground car parks. Have I ever seen more? I can’t think that I have. Inside there is a sense of ‘recently wealthy’.
And then there are the homeless, the apparently aimless – the occasional guy sitting with a dog with a label round its next saying ‘hungry’. Those contrasts have always been there.
It’s when you go to the street markets beyond the West End – Inverness street in Camden, Chapel Street in Islington that the contrast deepens. The pound shops too seem fuller, and there seem to be more of them, more charity shops too.
This is all anecdotal. One London cyclist’s glimpse of life around him. May be it can be argued that the poor are not as poor as they might have been in the 1980s recession. But my sense is that the rich are very much richer than I have ever known – and the gap between very rich and very poor is wider than I have ever known.
Treasury figures tend to support this view. Are the rich paying tax? Are they paying all the tax they should? How much of the wealth is non-indigenous – Russian, Nigerian, Latin American, Chinese?
At the other end – unemployment? Housing? I catch passing headlines in my mind’s eye – fewer houses built than in any time in the last ninety odd years. And this morning ‘former city minister calls for break-up of banks’.
I feel I experienced a strange and unnerving weekend in the aftermath of the violence of student demonstration. There’s a gulf out there the scale of which we may not have seen in our lifetimes, any of us. Multicultural successful, happening London. Is all that glitters quite as gold as we hope it is this Christmas?
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There are 72 comments on this post
I just don’t know where they get their money from. I work hard, am well qualified, have been around when all the higher paid jobs were up for grabs , but have not been able to secure a highly paid job. Along with the rest up here I have to struggle as a single parent , who is categorised for life …as that.
My salary is well below the new starters and my skills and knowledge of my job are in with the very highly paid.
This is one of the main problems.. managment etc, are taking from the top and keeping many down.It is use and abuse on a vast scale.
Having said that I will survive and I will become reasonably well off, but that perception is relative . To the average worker here I am being ‘laughed at.’
So what about value? a house to live in , warmth, clothing, food, a garden, luxurious gifts which we have to struggle for. Printers, computers, telephones and other non durables are all pushed at us as a necessity.
Why do we have to vulgarly parade BMW’S and ugly 4 wheel drives in front of the man who sits with his dog , playing a recorder, begging for money to buy him a fix so he can sleep under a bridge peacefully or die in the cold?
Samaritans? sure.
“And then there are the homeless, the apparently aimless – the occasional guy sitting with a dog with a label round its next saying ‘hungry’. Those contrasts have always been there.”
As a student in London in the 1980′s, there were a few beggars to be seen on the streets of the city, but nothing like the numbers that we have now. And they were very rare in provincial towns, each of which now seems to have its own population of the homeless.
For thirty years we have been told that huge inequalities of income and wealth are essential to create wealth for all (“trickle down” economics). When is this trickle going to start?
For thirty years we have been told that huge inequalities of income and wealth are essential to create wealth for all (“trickle down”]—
— If u believe that u have a real problem .Just go by the eviddence – its ” Trickle up”and has been for years .As far as I can make out – here in ROI – the rich often tend 2 b religous and are ” Blessed by god ” . The Poor – well ” Blessed are the poor ” as the good book says – but strangely few religous tend to accept that part of that accursed book.
This gap is hardly surprising when one considers waht has happend over recnt years with incresed tax cuts for the rich – and increased taxation for less well off . This is the New World Order – Neoliberalism – only liberal as reagrds finance eg taxdodging . Wheter your govt . is IMF or not – the trend is same – Privatise everthing that moves . .How could the less well off and poor not be going down . It is they who paid for the mistakes of the Rich thugs – who still go free . They[ the Rich] gambled with others people money – then got the State to cough up – They could not but be getting richer , and poor poorer .Some say taxing Rich will not solve problem – and they quote eg one years figures to justify – but these rich should have been taxed all along – not be putting their money in tax havens etc .
The Problem will not be solved until USA takes action – as the whole system is fashioned on theirs- which is heading for disaster – due for one -overspending on War . http://www.newstatesman.com/south-america/2010/06/chomsky-democracy-latin
http://www.sprword.com/videos/newrulers/ – this video shows our future .
Have just enquired of moderators, Jim, why response to this posted yesterday hasn’t appeared ? No time currently to re-write, so await reply from mods.
This is rubbish. Everyone who wished it has got ‘richer’in UK; not just the rich. Of the 4 million jobs that have passed through job centres in recent months, over 50% went to foreigners, not because our jobless did not have the skills, but because people elected to remain on benefits!
I am fed up with you envious whingers blaming everyone but yourselves for your lot. ‘Tax the rich’ is the mantra of the ignorant, Marxist losers who have done such a great job around the world!
Those who wish it can raise themselves in the Capitalist system from inner city council house, as many of us did, to anything that your potential allows; see Terry Leahy of Tesco and Bill Clinton in the USA.
Some people are brighter, more talented and luckier than others and we should rejoice in their success. It gives all of us a chance of winning life’s lottery.
Yes we should care for the genuinely needy but not those who are simply not as well off as their neighbour.
. Re jobs – u are saying that of 4 million jobs , two million were not taken up becuse these two million wished to remain on Benifiet. I think that this figure is high – but who could blame them if it were true , after all the bankers got Billions and Billions of ”Benifiets” fron their nanny state- – so maybe they wanted a piece of the bankers ”action ”
”Tax the rich’ is the mantra of the ignorant,”– this is absurd – are u saying the Rich should not pay tax – or things should stay as they are – and they pay little or no tax [ 12.5 % corp . tax ] here in ROI – are u aware of items called ” offshore acccounts ”?
U chose an unfortunate example in Mr. Clinton – whose foreign policies led to thousands of deaths – but like all the rich he gets away with it.He is now normalising realtions between Vietnam and USA . Normalisation means that foreign investors are offered tax-free “economic processing zones” with “competitively priced” (cheap) labour.
Re Adrian Clarkes comment re Labour govt – no I did not mention them – as I thought it so obvious that they were 100% right wing capitalists – and many of them should be in a court room for war crimes .
Your selective knowledge of history is breathtaking and beyond satire.
First, I do not know who you think of as “the rich”. Less than 1% of the population earn more than £150K. They already pay 50% in tax. Some avoid this but the majority don’t.
Taking more of their money will not even pay for the freeloaders who abuse the benefits system, let alone those who need it.
Some bankers are simply gamblers with other people’s money and the banks, rather than employees, should be ‘hit’ with a ‘windfall tax’ if they persist in rewarding high risk employees.
If they move their operation elsewhere, then charge them enormous sums for a licence to operate in UK. This is normal business for franchises; McDonalds, Ford, Avis etc.
Everyone should pay tax.But money raised in that way should not be wasted on the idle, useless cretins who think that benefits are a lifestyle choice; as was the case with our last Labour government.
I detest all lowlife that cheat our society whether rich or poor. I have been poor and do not see this as an excuse for criminal behaviour.
Finally, check out the altruistic records of Mao, Ho Chi Minh & Stalin and let us know your regime of choice!
”Less than 1% of the population earn more than £150K. They already pay 50% in tax. Some avoid this but the majority don’t.-”-
These do not pay tax – that is part of the problem – or only a fraction of what they should pay .A person on £ 150/ yr who pays 50% – yes thats a lot but no the majority dont pay their taxes – thats why they have offshore a/cs .
No I would not like Mao etc no more than I would like Bush , Clinton – or any of the US presidents of last 50 years or so . T hey are IMO an abaominable lot – whose warmongering has cost us all dear . One of their great heros Lincoln – had zero agaist slavery – it was only when he had no choice and thought South could win US civil war that he brought in Abolition 1/1 1864 .
I would like to live in a democracy – ie govt For the People – but doubt if that will ever happen in any sort of foreseable future . As for the ” benifiet ” people – many need benifiets and it was the abuse of same that I first heard of when I came to this town in ROI – . I just often wondered – why this tiny amount of abuse was higlighetd – and not the abuses that our Lords and Masters have always practised
You’ve only got to look at the traffic on Freecycle to realise how desperate people are for basic furniture, babies’ and children’s clothes, shoes, cookers, fridges, bedding, curtains, you name it. Social Security will only give loans for such things, repayable from weekly benefits, as I understand it.
Birmingham’s city centre is alway full of people selling the Big Issue, busking or just plain begging. The suburban high streets are crowded with charity-and pound-shops. Our Sainsbury’s is noticeably less busy now than at previous Christmas times – people are to taking the bus to Asda or to the nearest dismal high street because the savings make the fares worthwhile.
“The poor are always with us” – but why so many, amidst such wealth?
Jon,
This comes as no surprise at all. It’s a microcosm of the whole country but, it gets much worse the further north ‘ya head.
If you were to ask government Ministers about this mass division over the last 30 years, you’d get the usual obfuscational waffle and denial. Why? Because these people emanate from the same class that create the poverty and miser in the first place. These are the people who manipulate the figures and get them aired via their usual propaganda outlets like the BBC & SKY.
Take ‘unemployment’ for example. Most people don’t know there are 9.6 million people out of work and at least 5 million of those are not counted on the stats. The ONS (Office Nation Statistics) know this but are unable to collect the accurate data because the government make sure they can’t. The stats are there at the NI (National Insurance) office but not shared. If you ask the ONS about this, they say ‘run a campaign to highlight the missing millions’!
What you see in London or anywhere else is the true picture of Britain. A country back in the dark days of the Victorian/Dickensian era with the corrupt rich at the helm.
Capitalism is the cause driven by greedy selfish humans.
Though EDL marches (a true ugly side to democracy) might suggest otherwise, the UK should be proud of our world-beating cultural diversity; I might have picked this fact up on this blog, but its worth remembering that London has twice as many resident nationalities (population 10,000 or more) as New York or another city, and the continued strength of British culture has a lot to do with this rich globe spanning culture.
What fails to shine this Christmas are opportunities to better ourselves because social mobility is dead, like the parrot, and has been for some time. Social mobility was likely in sickly shape during the 80s, certainly terminal in the 90s, and altogether forgotten in the 00s. In 2010 Jon Snow would require an authentic miracle to gain a foot in the door of journalism. You can win the lottery in the UK, but you won’t even get odds for your chances of going from working class to professional class.
The collation has made noises about addressing the social imbalance, but we know what their promises are worth now, and it isn’t something that glitters.
Peter, I don’t think you can have social mobility if you allow “successful” people to enjoy the full benefit of the wealth they have “earned”.
Some of the more obvious advantages people expect their success to bring include being able to buy a (more expensive) house in the catchment area of a good school, or to find their next job through contacts at their private gym or golf club (these tend to lead to better jobs than those found via contacts at the bus stop).
The bit I find puzzling is that so many in their fifties and sixties seem to have forgotten that it was the “big, bossy state” that made them the first in their family ever to go to university, or the first to buy their own home (remember MIRAS?), or the first to break into a profession that had previously been an “old boy network”. And the ladders which allowed that generation to rise are all being removed.
Controversial as it may be, but I’m not necessarily married to the idea of taxation being primarily about wealth redistribution. There is nothing wrong from wanting to get wage that frees you to live a happy life, and if you are being taxed fairly and paying it honestly then society benefits from your ambition. That said, the disparity (e.g., you can better estimate your age of death more form you finances than from your physiology) and appalling social failures (even a drugged up junkie and a revolving door of abusive partners are better than taking a child in to “care”) the deadline is long past due to call in tax dodging corporations (and to lesser extent individuals) to show some gratitude.
Oh bob-lordy, I’ll not deep dive in to the baby-boomer thing (I never got over the school milk thing… I love milk) as I need some perspective, but given how grateful the post-war generation have been, it might have been wise not to spoil those that followed, but it is more likely (given the perennial immigration stink) that it is a case of protectionism… and an unfathomable (to me) loathing of all things under 20.
I think i live in a different world from some of you.I see no more poor on the streets than i have for the past ten years .Chesterfield has been packed with cars and shoppers,and all the outlying supermarkets are also packed.
It is interesting that Jim blames the rich , neo liberals and the USA. I do not see him or Annie blaming the Labour government that has been in power for the last 13 years.A useless lot of politicians who could not organise a p**s up in a brewery.Yet to look at current opinion polls 41%of voters want them back.Are those voters a bunch of masochists or is it true that people will vote for anyone /anything with a red rosette on it.
I look on freecycle Annie for furniture for my son who has just got a flat.There are some excellent bargains.
I do not blame the rich for being rich or the majority of the poor not being so rich.I do certainly blame the bankers for they were shysters betting with money not their own,The bulk of the managers should now be out of work and locked up for a long time.I believe the fact that the bonus culture still survives is unforgivable.
Of the poor we do not really have poor in this country
Adrian, the last batch of stuff I gave away on Freecycle was to a working single mother of 3 teenage daughters; she was working night shifts and struggling. It’s not only the bargain hunters getting something for nothing and patting themselves on the back for being environmentally aware who use Freecycle. Far from it.
You don’t see me blaming the Labour Government? It WASN’T LABOUR, it was “New Labour”, a totally different and tawdry ideology. I do blame them as much as any other. Don’t try to speak for me please – as you may have noticed I’m perfectly capable of presenting my own views all by myself.
Annie i never doubted you can speak for yourself , but i do not see the difference from Labour and new Labour,except neither is capable of running the country.I am not going to comment on a single mother with three teenage daughters ,except to say that good on her for working.I also bet they had plasma tv the internet and games consuls.I see you did not comment that the polls show that many people want Labour back!!!!!.However,i do wonder what Labour party you would prefer Annie?I would prefer a proper conservative government to this weak lying coalition
Adrian I thought it was a rhetorical question expressed in your usual inimitable manner…:)
…”plasma tv, internet & games consoles” .. Adrian do you always believe the worst of your fellows?
Annie like a lot of people you do not understand me
Editor of the Snarl!!!.
I do not decry anyone with the modern gadgets,but do not accept your analogy that the woman works nights and is struggling so she buys off freecycle.I just believe she is being frugal and sensible.
I call myself a tory but i’m not necessarily.I believe we are all capable of standing on our own two feet and that the state should only be a last resort safety net.I detest the modern drug filled lifestyle,whether its the rich or poor.I have seen it ruin many lives.I believe we should live within our means and not on easy credit,which is no better than gambling.In this society it is a case of want it ,have it.I believe in Capitalism,because it is the only way to deliver meaningful worthwhile jobs.That does not mean i believe in all Capitalists.I believe those that abuse their positions as the bankers did should be prosecuted and locked up.Just as i believe criminals should be locked up and not given their freedom under the stupid policies of Clarke.
Finally i believe in the UK, not multiculturalism nor Europeanisation
Adrian, you don’t BUY from Freecycle – it’s FREE!!
I stand corrected Annie.Buy was the wrong term , but i have obtained items off the site
When i mentioned that public services should be either free or heavily subsidised, a few had a laugh!
The gap is widening between rich & poor with no change in sight. That is fine with the rich because according to most of them, the poor should get off their backsides and find a job. The problem is that taxes do eat a large chunk of a hardworking person’s salary and are the rich paying the right amount of tax?
The above is a world problem due to us being controlled by world banks & interest rates like never before as Jon quite rightly points out. Charity shops are no longer what they were in the 90s and £1 shops, well find what you can!
adzmundo
I believe, both from evidence on the TV and anecdotally that many high earners are not paying the tax that they should – quite legally – since they avoid it.
I think however that we as a nation pay too much tax and expect too much of government, it is after all a very inefficient vehicle for delivering any service. The politicians are often unqualified for the tasks they do and often ignore specialist and scientific advice from people who do understand because the PR would be difficult. I’ve heard this from my former MP by letter and from politicians all the time. So they do things wrong too often.
My solution to the current rich/poor divide: cut tax rates for those under the average wage/salary to zero. Make those above it pay no more than 20%, cut company taxation to 10% for manufacturing and 20% for services. Sell the national health service to the private sector and enroll everyone in an insurance scheme a la France, cancel Trident, buy all arms “off the shelf” except where we can make better AND cheaper de-government us. Don’t support private companies – sell off banks when we’ll get a profit. These measure would reduce the gap between rich and poor within 10 years
…and that ends the news from the Planet Zog!
The poor have always been exploited but the situation is getting worse.The welfare state that provided for the elderly/ abused/ disabled and disadvantaged is deliberately being destroyed because of conservative ideology and profit for their cronies.Vulnerable children from poor families are now becoming the means by which the rich are getting richer.This government openly encourages private businesses/ multinationals etc to make profit from poverty and disadvantage.They want to starve local government of funds for front line services and give it to big business in the name of wealth creation. Why should local government have to pay thousands of pounds to fund services they can provide for a portion of the cost? As a taxpayer I do not want my tax going to fund BMW’s for the wealthy or into offshore funds for those with no principles or interest in this country or its people.
Redcat , you have a strange philosophy.How can you say the poor are exploited?According to those with your opinion , the poor have no money to be exploited.I have seen no sign of the welfare state being destroyed, only some sense being bought to bear on those eligible for benefit.As for frontline services, i think it is time that the workers realised they are in the real world.I live in a council house now managed by an ALMO on behalf of the council.Recently they joined forces with two private organisations to provide the last governments “decent homes”.At the same time they off loaded half their workforce to those companies.I had occasion to call them out following a leak and was informed by the worker that all the ex council staff can do is moan at the amount of work they have to do.
As for local government being able to fund the work at a portion of the cost, you are completely wrong.It is because they are too expensive that the services are contracted out. There is also much more control over the quality that way.
The problem is that local government , the health service and other public services have until now not been subject to the restrictions of the market.
Adrian, I’ve sussed you – you’re the editor of the Daily Snarl!
”How can you say the poor are exploited?According to those with your opinion , the poor have no money to be exploited.”
That statment just does not add up !!.
Adrian – I think it was u – some time ago mentioned that there were eight dairy farmers in your area – now – only one . Well the fact that there were 8 – was becasuse of CAP [ Common Agrictural Policy ] which gave farmers Billions over 20+ years . It maintained farms that would not survive in a free market sitaution – now the markets do affect Ag . goods – and so — . The Ironic thing is that here [ ROI ] the people who benifieted from this Socialist Policy [ the CAP ] by and large voted for Right wing capitalists . They bit the hand that fed them ! . Now is that intelligent – or is that intelligent !!
Jim,there are several reasons that there are no dairy farms,but the main one is the CAP.It redistributed farm wealth to uneconomic French , in particular, but mainly Europes farms away from the highly productive British ones.It created food mountains and then subsidised farmers not to produce.Your Socialist Cap is a prime example of all that is wrong with socialism , and it isnt the market that is starving farmers it is the stupidity of that great unelected institution the EU.Its good to see that those who thought they were benefitting from its largesse are now suffering its consequences and if they have ant sense will bring it down.
”the CAP.It redistributed farm wealth to uneconomic French , in particular, but mainly Europes farms away from the highly productive British ones.It created food mountains and then ”
Adrian – the rate of Payment per acre / Ha was same for everyone . It helped local communities survive. There was no discrimination for / against UK . Now that market forces are in play thes farmers are decreasing .
To Prove it – lets take an area where there were no subsidies – just the Free market — eg Fruit and Veg . The effect of the Free market was to decimate the number of growers – as growers had to get larger – economies of scale – and smaller growers – eg 20- 80 acre type growers could not live with this . So the Big growers survive – for a while – Then even bigger eat the big to satisfy the ever lower prices and quality standards that supermarkets demand . Thats the reality of this so called free market – it is a disaster for the majority . And yet – the victims vote for their opressors – the right wing capiatist parties !!- Maybe they deserve what they get .
Jim i am afraid you are living in the wrong country.Up until 2005 over half the CAP budget went to small inefficient french farmers .Plus portugueese and Spanish ones benefitted at the expense of British farmers.The quota system for milk , just as the fish quota system seriously damaged British farming.
I am afraid your Socialist,and Islamic internet sites are giving you a warped reality on how life is in a free country.It appears you believe that there should be no rich people or if there are they are totally corrupt.It seems that in your world only the poor pay taxes,yet the poor pay very little and were it not for the rich they really would be poor.
So Jon, How much do you earn ? Which side of the line does this put you on ? Where is the true line between rich and poor ? Maybe we are all taking too much out of the pot. What about the univercity lecturers on £60K when kids are now being asked to pay more ?
Surely many of our problems are these grossely inflated salaries that we are told are necessary to stop the best talents moving on, would you move Jon if your salary was reduced 20% ? no thought not. C4 it’s time to start investigating, naming and shaming the true salaries that we are paying ourselves, then the gap can start to be narrowed. Forget the “superrich” they aren’t the real problem, it’s the celeb and media driven cultures which are driving the wealth gap. What’s wrong with the old slogan, “live simply so others can simply live”
“What’s wrong with the old slogan, “live simply so others can simply live””
W.A. – nothing would please me more than being allowed to do this. But the situation faced by graduates in most workplaces is that the entry level posts barely let them scrape along, so they have to compete their way up the slippery slope if they want to build a life.
For non-graduates, the situation is worse. The interlocking system of low wages, casual contracts and means-tested in-work benefits means that there is no route which allows them to earn their way up from bare subsistence to financial security. We seldom hear about the working poor (it’s too politically convenient to bang on about “scroungers”), but it’s here that our economy is most obviously broken.
Britain has been constantly moving to the right for at least the past thirty years, the gap between the rich and poor has grown year on year, under political parties of all persuasion.
Yes there will always be poverty, that does not mean we should make people poor, as the coalition is doing to students, or that we should not try and lift people out of poverty, I see nothing in this coalition that will help those on low incomes by giving them massive millstones of student debt, then condemming them all as thugs, no one can agree with the violence or vandalism in recent days, not all protesters did damage or were violent, does this really justify water canons on Britains streets! Why stop there Winston Churchill used tanks in Glasgow to quell a riot during the first world war!
With the erosion of civil liberties under the past labour party and now the possible further erosion under this disreputable coalition, at what point will Britain become a fascist state?
you have just got to ask yourself,how many of the so called beggers are from good old london town.not too many!they are told to come on down to the streets of london for rich pickings.i’m told that on a good week [christmas lead-up weeks being the very best]they can expect to get at least £250!.if, we are told week in week out that there is no money about,how can a begger pick up a grand a month!we can all put down people with wealth, but how many of us do the lotto each week to just quick fix having wealth!.
The Gap between those who have and those who haven’t has always been there; up until the last 20 years or so we could afford to carry this load, now we can’t. The Global expansion of consumerisim and the need of the so called poorer third world countries peoples was a true godsend for the elite who truly control global economics. They used it to hide the movement of industry away from the old economic giants where wages/ costs and regulations were smothering their profits.Now they have opened up the large Asian, African and South American labour and consumer markets.The British Government in particular have ignored the need for people who lack academic ability to have decent well paid employment, this lies behind the ever deepening numbers of long term unemployment. False talk of new jobs, most of which are simply a vacancy becoming open as a worker moves about, cover the lack of created jobs. The false demand for more university qualifications simply creates well educated managers of fast food stores.Divorcing the majority of the regions from real investment has simply created a jobs ghetto in the South East. We are just beginning to see the shoots of real chaos; Britannia RIP.
The gap in pay between senior managers and the rest is – from a UK economy point of view – stupid. If the government want to improve the economy and improve the lives of millions of people, they should seek to reduce the pay of senior managers and directors, and to increase the pay of more junior workers. After all – if you have £1 million pounds as a salary, what percentage of it would you spend in Britain? Probably less than a person who, having been paid £20 thousand pounds, was now paid £30 thousand. That extra spending would help to boost the ecomomy, increase government income and help everyone – individuals as well as businesses.
A possible way of achieving this is to make pension fund managers more accountable to their investors, the pension fund holders – you and I in other words. By doing so, we could insist that pay was adjusted to more reasonable levels and was properly linked to managerial performance.
At the moment we are paying for our pensions, to allow the fund managers to support company managers, to keep our salaries low while maintaining their own at excessive levels! Crazy eh?
On a recent visit to London as we walked along Kensington High St outside a very expensive looking hotel was a guy lying on the pavement in a sleeping bag my thoughts were how can we live in one of the most well off countries in the world and have this divide between huge wealth and poverty which seems to be getting worse and I feel will only get worse under this government.This cannot go on we have a government with a cabinet of millionaires telling us we are in this together . Iam a public sector worker my chief officer earns more than the prime minster but is only resposible for approx 500 staff he has just recently retired taken his huge pension commutation and been re employed on the same salary and is now telling us we will have to loose posts and work a different shift pattern which is less family friendly no talk of loosing posts in the higher management structure same old story at the bottom we will suffer less money pay more for our pensions work longer!!!!!why? we did not get the country into this mess but we are now expected to pay for it !!
I’m reading Marx’s capital and found it quite informative in terms of understanding the current world. I suppose it is time we abandon the prejudice of ‘ideology’ and resort to this good old fellow for some answers. Why is everybody aspired to have those things that each of us ‘should’ have, like the newest electronic gadgets? because capital needs to realise its surplus value which means it needs people buy things all the time – do we need all these things? well, there’s always an intensive from the commercials. why are managers paid handsomely while the whole country is in deficit? the hierarchy in work place is essential to blur the real contradictions in society and give the majority of the people an illusion that they have the possibility to ‘get there’. It is not ideology and I’m not a big fan of those so-called communist parties that have existed or still exist in the world. But it is helpful to step out of the media discourse of all the facts (I’m not saying that the media are being dishonest, it is just that some critical thinking is needed sometimes if not most the time) and try to find the inner logic of the whole mess. for me I found Marx highly helpful.
Marxism is an ideology, in whose name idealists have killed millions.
Consumerism and capitalist production drive innovation: the means of production is the conduit to innovation. Effectively Communism kills technical progress.
The cold war was an economic war, and communism lost it hands down. It lost because it destroyed industrial innovation, industrial production, and agriculture. Even in China they have given it up.
Giving up everything to the centrally planned state through common ownership fails. It fails for the same reason that capitalism is inherently subject to corruption: human nature. The Chairman and the Politburo become an elite, award themselves massive Dachas and land their children plum jobs – they become aristocratic dynasties in all but name.
Animal Farm was right at the time, is right now, and will continue to be so. The only equality that is truly possible is equality before the law.
”The Chairman and the Politburo become an elite, award themselves massive Dachas and land their children plum jobs – they become aristocratic dynasties in all but name. ”
You are basically describing waht is happening in the so called ” western democracies ”of today – like the USA,UK etc . These are not democracies – these are Oligarchies – run by the Rich for the Rich .
Spot on, Yun, and Jim. Marx was correct. What others have done in his name is another matter entirely. Look at what’s done in the name of ‘democracy’ in UK – RBS, invasion of Iraq… the list is endless.
Strongly agree, Meg. Marx himself was basically trying to understand what was going on in the system, namely capitalism. He himself never coined the work ‘Marxism’, which, again, could have so many interpretations. That’s why I entirely avoided using this term in my comment. I was say ‘Marx’s Capital’ rathar than Marxism. it could be an ideology, it could also be a branch of academic theory. but here I’m not discussing what Marxism is. Building a so-called ‘communist/socialist society’ in the aftermath of a feudal society is what happened in former Soviet and China, which is actually anti-historical, since they didn’t have the ‘being’ to support such ‘thinking’. If you prefer the notion of ‘human nature’, it could be put in this way: that human nature hadn’t developed to such a level to sustain a socialist or communist society / ideology, yet. I don’t really know if that will happen one day or if it is just Utopian, but egalitarian society is what most people aspire for nowadays, seeing so much of inequality and ‘by the rich for the rich’ – many thanks to Jim. Animal farm shows what could be happening in a fake communist society. and now we see what’s happening in a fake democracy.
Does Jon snow spend a lot of manoey on extravaganses;
If i ever met him I’d liek to ask if he;s frugal or spendrfit;
He gives generously to didiapter appeals but may buy value brands ; BUt not when it comes to printers; Selfriges and JOhn lewis;
Is it because he thinks people recognise him in shops and he wishes to project the image that he hasd expensive tatste or that his slary and social standing means that he can’t be seen purtcahsing cheap products?. Hope the printer was on special and had some blue cross disount; I doubt he’d of managed to take a big box home ont he bike; Taxi. tube or deleivered; Ask snowy to ratify; No doubt he can afford balck cab prices.
Does he spend a lot on essnetials like boxera horts; How much do his colourful socks cost
I checked the Boden style we saw him weraing
on snowblog and they cost 30 for a pack of two; 15 quid per pair of undies; Hope the elastic waistband didn;’t loosen after two 40 degree washes; Wonder if Jon snow only mad rthsi style his rpefernce afetr the Niock kanem add made this styel sexy
Hard to know if they wereeven made with designer fly openings int eh 1960′ and 70′s. Jon snow could dislcose this info.
We are in a capitilist mess. I agree I don’t think there is a need for designer stuff and branding without quality BUT there is a need to get the market going in our favour to increase GDP.
The levels the market works on are many fold. The cheaper things are in plenty and need many products to increase sales and performance, the more expensive need an extra amount to be spent to create all over wealth and the still more expensive products , less people , but they are still required to be sold.
This spiral movement ups and downs with market fluctuations. If products become so cheap that they dissapear up their own exhaust, the firms won’t survive and people will become unemployed.
So Jon we need a few to keep spending
They are now stopping care for people regarded as ‘medium’ sickness. I stress REMOVING completely not just reducing. The ‘Medium’ ill are people who cannot bathe themselves and who are housebound. How are these ‘customers’ of the social services meant to survive? If they can’t shop they can’t eat, If they can’t bathe how will they be capable of looking after themselves? Its gone beyond a divide between the poor and the rich to a culling of the weak… Don’t get sick ok because you will regret it. Oh hang on you don’t chose to get ill do you? When will it happen you?
I wonder if there’s a direct link between some of the people in the big cars and the homeless people they drive past – i.e. profits made in the rigged housing market. Two measures brought in by the Thatcher administration in the 80s have caused this. The scrapping of the Fair Rents Tribunals gave private landlords a free rein. The selling off of council houses, and the forbidding of local councils to spend the proceeds on building replacements, created a dearth of social housing which created a boom for private landlords. Often enough Housing Benefit has had to pay the inflated rents, which begs the question “who exactly has been subsidised by the much maligned Housing Benefit?” Has it been the tenant, has it been the man in the doorway with his dog, or has it been some of the people in the big cars?
One of the problems is that no policial party represents the interests of the poor in the country.
The labour party gave up under Blair, frightened to offend the rich and powerful and the ‘aspiring’ classes.
For a while it looked as though the lib dems might fill the void. Then they got the chance of power.
Tories? Well, they are tories and no matter what they say, every instinct of their body screams for them to help their own.
Which leaves the Greens with their one MP. And as things are going, we may all have to make do with bikes before long, unable to afford a car, so perhaps they are the future.
Saltaire i almost agree with you,except your comments “the poor”.Who are these so called poor? Do you mean those on benefits , or those working on low incomes?Are ,in your view the majority?For in my view no one represents the majority.They are more important than the rich or poor.There can be no democracy until the views of the majority are put into practice.
Governments seem to believe they have total right to legislate as they wish.They do not consult their electrate,nor do they take note of their views.Would we be members of the EU?Would we have hanging for murderers?Would criminals be jailed?Would civil servants have gold plated pensions at the expense of the tax payer.
The list can go on and on .A country were the majority view hold no power .Where politicians lie yet keep their jobs.I;m afraid Saltaire none of the parties or politicians care about us the possible majority
Perfectly put…as always
Jon,
Fair enough, this is London anecdotal only. You can’t be clearer. The blog should be read accordingly. If anybody takes it out of that context it tells you more about them than you.
What it illustrates is just how narrow-minded British culture has become. It has become corrupt, metro-centric…….where there is little or no consideration for anything that happens outside London. And when something IS given coverage it is usually to denigrate and sneer as well as disguide long term reality.
This has led to a schism that you people in London seem oblivious to. This is not mere regional chauvinism, it is of the deepest and most profound nature with only slight regional variations. Sooner or later it is going to have very serious consequences, much much worse than the riots of the 1980s. There will come a time when ultra right wing media lies and propaganda will be of absolutely no avail. It has dawned on regional Britain that the only thing that might have affect is direct protestation in London.
You people in that tiny south east ghetto cannot say you haven’t had enough warnings. You either believe in a united nation or you don’t. So much for phony “Big Society.”
This has been developing since the 1980s. At that stage we began a process of neoliberal market economics which essentially destroyed UK manufacturing & instituted a flexible low wage labour market for the many & high paid jobs for the relative few. People (largely men) with few or limited skills who were suited to work in manufacturing were, in effect, cast aside. As there was “no such thing as Society”, they were expected to make their own way, generally with the help of the benefit system. While Labour attempted to tackle the problem through early years education (Sure Start) & similar policies aiming to create a generation with more skills & aptitude for the modern labour market, their terror of offending the political centre meant that they shied away from any form of redistributive taxation, so the money needed to tackle deprivation, lack of employment skills, effective policing of deprived areas has been lacking. We now have, as predicted years ago, 2 Britains – one affluent (in my area new “pamper parlours” have stiull being opened during the recession) and one poor, lacking skills, motivation and hope. Globalisation is also damaging them – & it will only get worse
The reason why the gap between the rich and poor is widening is because the top earners including Company Directors&Shareholders,Footballers,TV and Radio presenters,Entertainrs etc, are very efficient TAX DODGERS. We have reached a situation were the lowest paid because of PAYE seem to be the only ones paying tax on their earnings and as the tax system is the only way you can change the distribution of wealth under the Capitalist System the gap WILL widen
Thirteen years of Labour ‘government’ have widened the gap between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have nots’enormously.
Labour’s last Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Liam Byrne, summed his Party’s legacy to the Country when he left a note to his successor simply stating, ‘There’s no money left – good luck ‘.
What on earth happened between 1997 and 2010 ? Money wasted on an unprecedented scale. Now we all have to pick up the bill. The Blair/Brown duumvirate was an absolute catastrophe.
Adrian, you suggested recently I was talking nonsense about Ireland’s banking crisis and housing bubble. The two links below may interest you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/05/dublin-housing-market-crisis-bailout
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/ireland-business-blog-with-lisa-ocarroll/2010/dec/14/ireland
Meg i am not sure what you believe these articles prove.That the rich bought extravagant properties at an inflated market price because of the false boom in European Ireland.I for one am glad that they have lost out by exploiting their wealth in such a way.There is nothing in the article that says they could not afford their mortgages,or reneged on them
They prove- if u read them – that the bankers were willing to still take massive bonuses – depite being largely owned / bailed out by the State . They did not give a da#n – they wanted their millions – and scr#w the public – and it was only last minute forced by govt . intervention that stopped these people —whose moral values appear to be non existent .
Investment bankers .
They get there money from uk treasury.
Is it legal?
Here in Oxford so many jobs are taken by immigrants – in supermarkets, smaller shops, buses, taxis etc. I’m not anti-immigrant (having an immigrant parent) but it’s become overwhelming. Why aren’t British people doing more of these jobs? Are so many of them at college getting degrees in a higher sphere, so that the British want to be chiefs and never Indians? (sorry – sounds a bit un-pc!) We’re an advanced society, and it’s wonderful that so many people can go to college and not be stuck in tedious jobs for decades, but it means that so many are condemned to unemployment for generations.
Re the gap… If we take homelessness as an indicator of the gap… homelessness is infinately more common than when I moved to London in 74. The average lifespan of a homeless person is 40. The lack of access to housing means the problem is even bigger because hidden within those actually housed is severe overcrowding… The size of properties that used to be allocated to single people now house couples with young children, allocated by housing associations and councils. Not only is this very difficult for those in overcrowded homes, it leads to stresses amongst neighbours as buildings not meant to accomodate so many, and so much additional normal family noise is being felt when one rarely experiences quiet in your own home. My house homes 11 adults and 4 children in 8 flats..either side the same sized houses home one family and their live in domestic workers. One has a car worth £350,000. i have worked in recycling on short term contracts for the last years, I never have had very much surplus, but right now, I cant even afford to heat my home comfortably, I buy clothes at charity shops and I worry about my weekly shop. I also look forward to working till I drop.
The 1 percent? Hackney Council Administrator earning ‘more than the Prime Minister’ 175K -as Jon Snow put it to the cash-strapped borough Mayor! It’s the going rate for the job, so the Mayor says!
That’s fine then, isn’t it? FFS- Come on voters-pull your finger(s) out!
While I’m not advocating the head of any council being paid £175k pa, this comparison that is trotted out with the PM is specious.
It takes no account of his other benefits such as 10 Downing Street, Chequers and all those cars. it costs him nothing to live or to travel and whether he’s any good or not,like Tony Blair he will retire with a massive pension, office paid for, security paid for and many other perks.
Come on Factcheck, let’s know the real cost of our Prime Minister.
Now new labour’s lies are exposed. Mandelson, Bliar, Campbell and Brown are shown to be neoconservative chameleon politicians who took advantage of the 1980s right wing poststructuralist attack on the unions and Labour Party. They did this by hegemonically pervading the so-called intellectual left with Laclauian conjectural chemistry – Derridaian ‘deconstruction’ and untestable psychoanalytic theory – resulting in the undermining of the language of the unions and neutering of the Labour Party. That wordy fool Kinnock and his witch hunter general wife stripped the labour party of its young left wing who were the life-blood. The chameleon politicians were only too keen to sell their scientific socialism for a mess of Gramscian radical Liberalism (Laclau and Mouffe, et al) resulting in the Platonic bridging of 17 years of reactionary authoritarian Thatcherism and the holding pattern of Majorism, and the current undemocratic government liberal-Tory coalition.
I am not a young anarchist or Marxist revolutionary, I am an independant academic, just 60, who now thinks we should all support the students in demos to unseat the government and save the NHS and university educations.
The unprincipled liberals have now shown their real worth. They are turning back the clock to 1850 so that we have no university education, the GPs will be well off and hard to reach on call centes whilst on the golf course, and the NHS hospital sector bankrupt and taken over by private hospitals.
It only needs these 18th century dominators – the Libs – and their Tories to change the voting system, and ‘we the people’ will not have a choice of socialist government ever again.
Chris Floyd Cognitive and Political Systems Ltd.
What on earth is the point of this blog?
Are you saying that the gap between the richest and the poorest is greater than it has been in probably over a century? I agree.
Are you saying that it is not desirable? I agree.
Are you saying this is the result of the last 13 years of a Labour government? Of course you aren’t.
I’ve just watch you spoon feeding shadow ministers on the likely increase in people classified as living in poverty. You let him get away with murder. Why?
We know why Mr Snow. Your partisan attempts at journalism are disgraceful.
We all know we are getting poorer. The fact is why? And it has a he’ll of a lot more to do with the causes of the credit crunch than it does the necessary (and bloody painful) measures the coalition are implementing to pay for Gordon Brown’s irresponsible orgy of debt accumulation and ineffective spending.
Of course it’s bloody hurting. It’s going to hurt more. What’s the alternative? We are broke. The money doesn’t grow on tress – unless Darling is printing it…
Mark, as a life-time labour supporter, I doubt if many people are more disappointed than I am that a labour government oversaw an increase in the gap between richest and poorest, the Iraq war and the introduction of university tuitioin fees.
However, it seems you failed to notice that most countries in the world are currently going through an economic crisis, and they can’t all be Gordon Brown’s fault. It beggars belief that he was so incompetent at home yet so powerful overseas. Even if GB were completely to blame, it’s not an excuse to make the poor pay more.
The point of this blog is to discuss how the paying off of the debt should be shared out. Some, and I number myself among them, feel that the bankers who share much of the blame, should be at the front of the queue.
I would also scrap our independent, never to be used nuclear deterrent, and would make sure that tax dodgers lost their tax dodges.
I’m personally opposed to the VAT rise because by its nature it represents a higher proportion of a low income than of high income and I think the debt should be shared as fairly as possible.
Jon,
” Do you regret any of the leaks ” What non-sense, Jon! Why should anyone regret these leaks of American Domination of Planet earth.
Did you see John Pilgers Documentary on ITV on Tuesday night, Thoroughly recommended !!!. You appear to have Lost all credibility of Investigative Journalism and are totally Embedded in the Powers that be and the Propaganda they tell you to say. You seem to suggest that an American plot to get him extradited from Sweden is impossible, What about rendition? Guantanamo? water-boarding? Bush Electioneering? the list is endless, Capable of anything to maintain their Global Dominance
.
As a so called Journalist you should be pleased that someone who is innocent until proven Guilty is now free to talk to you and us and tell his side of the story and not be Gagged in a confined prison cell with no rights, whilst on remand, not even charged.
Neither John Simpson, Kate Adie, Jeremy Paxman nor John Pilger would use that line of questioning that you did tonight. All great investigative journalists have been taken off the top newspots, WHY? For the last few years I have relied on Ch4 news to try and get some measure of truth on TV news. After refusing to watch SKY *Bull* and the BBC 24 hrs Drivel that falls in line with their paymaster Govt. After this and your dreadful coverage of the student demonstrations with no attack on Police tactics of Kettling being the cause of rioting and the consequences squarely on the shoulders of the Home Secretary for those Tactics; I will no Longer subscribe to your program, emails or Reports.
The British Press has Lost all credibility, controlled on one side by the Murdoch Empire and the other by Whitehall under the Auspices of the US persuasive machine. It resembles PRAVDA under the Soviet system and sometimes contains anything but the TRUTH.
I shall rely on the internet, independent Journalists, Al Jazeera, wikileaks, Blogs ( not yours! )( Unless you can make a good case for me doing so ) and Youtube, for my keeping in touch with events. I shall let you carry on with your glossing over the incumbent Politburo, as they increase the gap between the Super Rich and the Poor and bring in more stringent measures to restrict freedom of speech further and the right to demonstrate against these Nationalist Policies.
A friend said to me , maybe Jon is approaching retirement and is concerned about his Pension or the pending Honours List?
Whatever !!!
Cheers,
Andy, you seem to be arguing against yourself. You want tough investigative journalism but you appear to want Jon Snow to tickle Assange’s tummy and chuck him under the chin.
There is a case to be made that wikileaks has made it more difficult for those who are given the duty to keep us safe, to do their job. Even friends may be less frank if they think their views are going to be available to all. Would you be as frank about your boss to a workmate if you thought the boss would find out?
It is perfectly valid, therefore, for us to find out if Assange has at least thought about all the possible consequences before releasing this material.
I think you are mixing up investigative journalism with campaigning journalism. The former questions everyone equally, trying to find out people’s motives and expose their train of thought. It doesn’t assume any side to be right.
C4 News has a great track record of questioning everyone. That’s why so many people on all sides of the spectrum on this blog, accuse them of being biased against them.
The gap is widening between rich & poor with no change in sight. That is fine with the rich because according to most of them, the poor should get off their backsides and find a job. The problem is that taxes do eat a large chunk of a hardworking person’s salary and are the rich paying the right amount of tax?
The above is a world problem due to us being controlled by world banks & interest rates like never before as Jon quite rightly points out. Charity shops are no longer what they were in the 90s and £1 shops, well find what you can!
adzmundo
So what are we going to do about it? Other than complain on a blog? How can it be fixed when the power to do so lies with the same elite?
Admiring the commitment you put into your blog and detailed information you provide. It’s great to come across a blog every once in a while that isn’t the same unwanted rehashed information. Wonderful read! I’ve saved your site and I’m adding your RSS feeds to my Google account.