Does the whole system need root and branch reform?
Legal sources I have spoken to tell me there could be a case to answer under both the fraud act (over the specific claim) and under the theft act.
If it came to it, there’s a real danger that the Metropolitan Police may be put off investigating former Labour minister Elliot Morley by the chaotic scenes that surrounded the arrest of Damien Green MP (Tory frontbencher).
Morley’s misdemeanour has been followed by the discovery by David Cameron’s office that the MP husband and wife Andrew MacKay and Julie Kirkbride had each claimed for different second homes. Mr MacKay, needless to say, blamed not himself but the fees office for suggesting he did it.
The scandal begs to have the whole parliamentary system investigated. And I’m still concerned that nothing has yet been said of any substance about the scale of abuse in the House of Lords.
The idea that the speaker has never been removed other than by beheading, and in any case not since 1690, is one part of the increasing sense of laughing stock that this extraordinarily serious situation is presenting.
The other is spectre of committee after committee after committee, apparently investigating all these abuses. Cameron has been looking more fleet of foot and more decisive. When it comes to feet, Gordon Brown has been looking more leaden.
The Labour local and European election launch today appeared to be all but farce, people like Hazel Blears (communities secretary in the Cabinet) surfacing for the first time since she admitted not only flipping her properties to maximum effect, but also failing to pay capital gains tax. So far as I could tell, she was not seriously tackled.
And I would point you to the excellent comment below. A nifty piece of research.
Related posts:
- Daniel Hannan, YouTubed into the public gaze
- Waiting for The Man
- Brown considered ditching lobby system
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While you have him in the studio, ask Mr Bottomley why he claimed over £23000 last year for a 2nd home when he represents Worthing, barely 60miles from Westminster.
As a Scottish person living in Edinburgh I am dismayed at the sanctimony displayed by MSPS. Around 20% employ relatives, and many continue to claim every penny possible, even after their so called review. I implore Channel 4 to investigate politicians employing relatives, which after all is what instigated this whole crisis of confidence in our parliamentarians.
and Mrs Bottomley? …Peter
The MPs caught up in the latest scandal make a great deal about the requirement to live away from home. Thousands if not millions of working people have to live away from home but are only allowed to claim closely restricted claims against tax for a maximum of two years. What has happened to Common Law. It seems that MPs have taken over from the Barons of old with one law for them and another for the rest of the country. And now we have HIPS scandal. Another one Olly.
I run my own small business and I am aware that it is fraudulent – let alone immoral – to attempt to make profit from expenses. As MP’s do with the taxpayer, I often claim a business expense from a client for the purchase of any service, goods or even a building to enable me to carry out work on their behalf and all of these purchases belong to the client – particularly tangible purchases. Therefore any profit from these purchases also belongs to the client. If the client agrees that they will contribute a percentage of the costs to a personal purchase, then that percentage and its associated profit belongs to the client.
I think the Inland Revenue should go as far back as they can with any member of the public and gather all taxable income from MP’s expenses, plus the taxpayer should be repaid the percentage capital and profit (of flipped properties etc).
I wonder who will be the next public group to be examined?
Please, Jon Snow, stop referring to the Palace of Westminster as the ‘Mother of all parliaments’. ENGLAND is the mother of parliaments, and she may well be about to throw her illegitimate child out onto the street!
However, I shall relax this rule to misquote Jesus as reported in the Gospel of Mark (I am not religious): “Is it not written: My house shall be called of all nations the mother of parliaments?; but ye have made it a den of thieves”.
I do not know the answer..can we call our History Professor David Starkey Jon ..?
We’ll have no ‘mother of parliaments’ if the trend of Eu laws continue; now some 75% of regs now bypass westminster.
Den of thieves is a distraction from looking ahead to reverse a federal Europe
As a working magistrate, I am perplexed! How do I face defendants who have “forgotten” to renew car insurance or have “neglected” to inform Social Security that they have started work… etc etc when MPs seem to be relying on ignorance in order to evade justice? We are always told that Ignorance is no defence in law…how come MPs can use this argument? With regards.
Exactly my thoughts. Criminals have now got examples to follow.
The’re not comparable Sydney…any uninsured driver knows why those requirements are in place….it’s known that if you as the driver are pulled over by the police….you’re going to be charged etc …..
You are the magistrate in this forum with experience and expert advice from the Clerks of the Court..Perhaps you should take advice…..I offer no apology for being so blunt…should you still continue as a perplexed Magistrate?….Peter
Maybe when you are confronted with a social security case of a desperate person who did cheat the system due to poor socio economic conditions, Then give them a break! explain to them you are going to impose a lenient punishment on them, but show some humanity also and tell them due to our corrupt worthless politico’s at the top. In days like these i think following your conciense rather than the rule of law.
It will never fail you.
If Mugabe and his pals behave in the same manner, what would the British establishment have said.
In light of the current downturn, and very real hardship felt by many in these times, I am utterly dismayed and disgusted at this catalogue of downright fraudulent behavior by those we have elected.
I expect nothing less than the full repayment of those “EXPENSES, ” sacking, and prosecution by those responsible!!
Although repayment is important as is prosecution of those who have committed a criminal offence, to my mind the much more important thing is that many of these people who rule us have been guilty of unethical and immoral behaviour. How can they be allowed to continue as our rulers? They pass laws to make us behave properly but they are clearly guilty of behaving improperly themselves. Surely any MP guilty of unethical behaviour, such as fixing their claims for expenses in a manner which no ordinary member of society would countenance should be removed from office as an MP and a bye election be held in their constituency. only then shall we have a Commons worthy of our respect.
I agree that the expenses must be paid back in full and also think that parliament should be dissolved and start again with new ministers under new rules.
You see, to me, the simple fact of the matter is that they were all deliberately and consciously feathering their nests with the tax payers money while those tax payers have been loosing their jobs and their homes.
And what infuriates me the most are those people who in defence say that without these expenses to make up their wages the country will not attract good ministers! What a load of codswallop!! It takes a lot of the people in this country 5 years to earn what they earn in a year.
If these expenses had not been allowed in the first place we surely would have got more caring ministers who remained in politics for the right reasons and understood how life for the average person in the country is.
They were all in it to different extremes and therefore everyone of them should go. They think they are above the rest of us and so forget that the people who got them in can also get them out!
As a teacher who is constantly being battered by ever tougher and more unreasonable Ofsted regulations at the behest of politicians: is it not time to have ‘OfParl’ whose guidelines and inspections can strike fear into the hearts of our lawmakers in the same way Her Majesty’s Inspections do to myself and my colleagues?
Yes the system is very broken.
Public expenditure should be published by default, we should not have to dance around with FOI to get information it is OUR money!
MP’s expenses should be a fixed multiple of the minimum wage. When the poorest in society get a raise, so do the MP’s.
I think parliament should be disolved and the police called in. The Queen should be asking for Browns resignation and an independant enquirey. Yes the speaker should go too.
They should all have to fight again for their jobs and explain themselves to the electorate from the ground up. We are the laughing stock of the world with this whole issue.
These MPs are simply pigs in the trough, I’ll never vote for any of the major parties. My vote next month will be for The Jury Team.
I’m absolutely appalled at the demonstrates of the very people we have
selected to run our country in a manner which is fair, reasonable with
honesty and integrity.
For me the current situation reasonable that we the public will have
to rectify this situation at the next election. There are thousands of
community groups throughout the country who operate for the good of all
without claiming any payment let alone expenses.
A fair and reasonable system was setup to assist elected MP’s what we
the public thought would enable them to carry out on our behalf a job
with the utmost of integrity, honesty and moral responsibility.
Oh how wrong we can be!!!!!!!!………………I would urge
independent community champions to stand against these MP’s and restore
to our country the values and integrity that is a crucial foundation of
the British society
I would call on all MP’s to stand down and give the general public the
opportunity to elect or otherwise the people we would wish to run the
country going forward on our behalf.
Come on MP’s do the descent thing…………..or is that an expense
your not willing to risk claiming
Do personal morals & Integrity still exist
Peter Jackson
For those MP’s who need somewhere in London surely the State could buy properties (nice properties) and not all in one place, upkeep the properties and pay the bills for the MP’s to use when in London?
An excellent idea and one espoused more than once here in the Midlands. MP’s could then be issued with a travel permit to get to and from Parliament. What other expenses would they then need?
The property existed – there were several hundred flats in Chelsea Barracks but the site was sold for a quick profit. Think what the saving in police hours would have been having all MPs in one building – and they might have been more sympathetic about army quarter conditions!
Just been watching C4 news with the discussion betwen 3 MPs and voters. One person claimed that we needed more indepndent canditades. A party free parliament would be brilliant but it would require a stronger position for the monarch, especially in choice of ministers. Maybe with Charles?
Here we go… an attack on democracy and the power of the people. Rather than a stronger monarch, how about a stronger Ed Whiffin?
Are you mad?
If MPs can claim a trouser press because “looking smart is necessary to the job”, why can we not all claim one? Almost everyone has to buy smart clothes for work – they tend to be necessary, and most of us earn nothing like MPs. But we can’t claim expenses for work clothes, or travel to work or lunch while at work.
They are utterly out of touch and don’t have a clue how the rest of us live.
There is NOTHING wrong with the expenses system- it’s the people using it. The current system would work perfectly if it were being used by honest people acting in the public good. The reality is however that it is being used by people of questionable integrity. To work properly the system can either be reformed to accommodate its corrupt users or current MPs can be replaced by people of higher integrity.
Its amazing that no-one is immediately being interviewed by the police or the inland revenue for either fraud, misuse of public money or tax evasion. What will it take for this to happen. Without this cleansing and levelling, why should the public trust any politician ever again. One can only marvel at other countries who would have taken to the streets by now to demonstrate their extreme displeasure.
All this teleworking, having the parle used to ment something. Pomp and cere (sera) money. Too few video presence. Everything paid for twice. Trouser press, vainity and suit syndrome. Corruption becomes slighly more public.
This is supposed to be a democracy. In a democracy the people are the boss. If we’re the boss, we’re to blame. It’s no use pointing the finger at the politicians as if we’re all innocent bystanders. The day we all take responsibility for our politics is a day we’ll start making serious progress toward a better political system.
In a totalitarian Society.. Graham…your comments might be closer to the truth….Cuba or North Korea..?? Graham..and would you stay ?
The operative words here is ‘supposed to be…’ and for the record, the fat greedy landlords have never changed our political system to include We, The People!!!
We are still subjects of HM Queen and ‘democracy’ as we know it is a whim of both the Queen and our Prime Minister: there is no such thing as ‘democracy’ in this country, as the only democratic thing we, the people cvan do, is elect idiots who stand for election!!!
And once ‘they’ give us the chance to vote, all we can do is vote for idiots, once in that is it: we, the people can do nothing to get rid of them!!!
That is how it is now and has been this way for centuries!!!
British politics is based on this premise: say what u need to say to get yourself elected then do what you like when you’re ‘in’, get in by any means ‘fair or foul’ then please yourself!
Did you guys not see this in play when millions of us people stood up and said ‘not in my name’ when we were deciding to go to war in iraq in 2003??
Some of us people are thinking that we need ‘a root and branch’ reform of the way we govern ourselves and this current ‘crop’ of politicians are just denying to themselves that we need to change the way we govern ourselves!!!
Another problem is the widely held apathetic view that we, the people can do nothing to change the way we govern ourselvs and that needs to change if we are to govern ourselves for the better future we all need and deserve!!!
The fat greedy landlords like it that way and We, The People’s incomes are abuse as a direct result!
We, The People have started to wake up to the reality that government is abusive, bankrupt and corrupt as an institution and ‘feels wrong’ and until enough of us get off our bums and tell them by email or by post, as thousands of us have done thru fora like here at channel4 news, then government will remain un-democratic and abusive!!!
Tell your friends and families to get off their bums and vote as soon as you can and until We, The People get the referenda and elections we call for, then the longer these fat greedy landlords get in their wallets and the less we the people get in ours!!!
My definition of ‘democracy’ includes the oipinions and views of the electorate and does NOT include the fashist dictatorial government we have at the moment, where our Prime Minister, for example, is the only person who can decide when to call for a General Election!
I have written numerous times to all our civic leaders to call for a ‘root and branch’ fndamental review of the way we govern opurselves as these recent allegations and proven evidence of abuse, bankruptcy and corruption is just gonna get worse!!!
How bad do you guys want it to get??
Write those emails Now to all civic leaders and tell them why We, The People need a general election right here right now!!!
it is not only MP’s who are required ‘to look smart’ to carry out their employment duties, but only an MP who has access to a public pot to fund a trouser press!! Incredible that the MP regards himself as honorable being so far down the claiming list…Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!
“that the speaker has never been removed other than by beheading”
Could that still be organised, do you reckon?
Perhaps additionally squeezed in the trouser press first Cath….
Sadly our MPs are doing their best to discredit the fragile nature of Democracy. I feel totally disenfranchised when left with the choice of a group of apparent fraudsters.
We hear how hard MPs work, so do many of us, myself in education, and yet we are left struggling to afford housing while paying for MPs homes through our taxes. Does the system need reform? Yes, desperately, before extremist politics start to seem an attractive alternative. History at least teaches us that.
It will take root and branch constitutional reform. Parliament is in disrepute and ALL current servings MPs are tarred with the same brush. There should be a criminal investigation, recovery of assets and jail sentences for those involved.
Time to abolish the Lords and Commons.
All members of parliment obviously need to be reminded that they hold the positions that they hold as representatives of the public in general.
As such they should have to answer to the public. All political ‘goings on’ should be totally transparent, and perhaps a code of moral conduct drawn up.
How can we allow these people to make any of our decisions or laws when we have proof that many of them have no moral scruples at all!
Our eldest son drives 50miles to his office each day and I used to do similar distance for many years….
This whole affair is a joke and a show of total disrespect from the people of whom we put our trust, care, future and responsibilities. We entrust them with the decision making tools which will effect our families, our lives and our existence.
These people should now be removed from their jobs and dealt with as criminals, the same way we would be if we stole from employers or people.
This cannot go on !!!
Just how weak are we ?….. deal with this appropriately…..for gods sake someone take hold of the reins and deal with it and guide this country…the political parties…..and human decency back to where it should be.
Just how low do we have to go ???? are we so entrenched that we have forgotten all the decent things in life !!!!
Loui Corry
I’m concerned ‘fiddling’ expenses is just a symptom of politicians only acting in their own interests, either directly or indirectly, as friends of friends, as company directors ,or silent partners. How else can we explain how our representatives suddenly become our masters once elected. Personally, I won’t be voting for any of the main parties in the forthcoming elections.
Come on Channel 4 – that piece from Church House was borderline tacky. The guy that described it a ‘Channel 4 meets Kilroy’ was right. Totally unbalanced and playing to public sentiment.
I agree. I’m a big cheer leader for Channel 4 News; especially it’s journalists Jon Snow, Krishnan Guru-Murthy and Alex Thomson but this show(trial) was totally ill conceived. The very politicians who are in the vanguard in trying to hold the system to account, were the ones getting pilloried by the public sat in the back row aka “Channel 4 Viewers Who Rang In Today”. I guess C4 couldn’t get the criminals on… then we could have spectated in a just and proper whipping. Come on Kris you’re a better bloke than this, give those who deserve a bloody good kicking just that not those on OUR (the taxpayers) side.
As a company director who gets up at 5am leaves home at 6am drives 68miles to my office and leaves at 6pm for a 2 hr drive home – I find the idea of a second home very appealing. However if I stop in the town where my office is I am due to pay tax on the hotel room the company would provide as it is benefit in kind. I revcieve a sandwicha at my esk provided by my company as I always work through my lunch if I get one – I am paying £400 per annum as benefit in kind which is reported in my P11d. Why should these people not be subject to the same rigours I am when claiming expenses and why shouldn’t the Inland Revenue show as much interest in the benefits they receive. Without a doubt if I once got my expenses wrong questions would be asked if I did it twice I would not be given the chance to do it three times.
I am starting work tommorrow (thank god) after 9 months out of work, the last 3 without any help from Jobseekers allowance, (came within a whisker of losing house) These corrupt B**@$*ds should be made to pay everything back, and the worst offenders should be jailed because if it was Joe public like you or me I am sure the boys in blue would be knocking on the door, well thats it I have to go because I can actually feel my blood boiling.
Hi Stan..I was only unemployed for a short period of time and the feeling of raw vulnerability stil remains…good luck and enjoy tomorrow…Peter
When is the media spotlight going to be turned on to the expenses claims of the members of the European parliament?
I have worked for many years in the charity sector. In the charities for which I worked it is commonly accepted that it is OK to claim genuine work-related expenses but that for the good of the charity all employees should do their utmost to keep expenses to a minimum.
Lax rules on expenses only work under this assumption. Presumably the current system in Parliament was designed with the assumption that MPs would exercise the highest standards of public and private probity; that they would claim the minimum possible, not the maximum possible. Where employees take the opposite view a tight and transparent regime is called for.
It is desperately sad that this should be the case. Yes, the public should be angry, but we should also weep at how public standards and honour have slipped.
these people are in a position of power and dont seem too have any morales whatsover,the ones that have gave money back obviosly know their actions where wrong rather than give the money back should be resigning in shame but none of them will because it is all self interest and nothng to do with the people that they have been voted too represent and the will out stick it out
Sadly, we have a 19th century political system for a 21st century country. The population mix is also totally different. We need a root and branch change of the system, such as proportional representation, allowing new political parties to have influence. An elected house of lords. Also the raising of local taxation to be put to a yearly referendum.
Perhaps it is time for a coalition of independents to stand on an integrity, honesty and honour ticket.
These expenses are supposed to be, wholly and exclusively, used to support them in their jobs as MPs. If that particular MP cannot do his job without a crease in his trousers -then he’s probably not worth electing. Can’t he buy an iron, and pay for it himself?
A more disturbing element to this is to see ‘Mr Speaker’ (had his own expenses problems) launching the Met Police, run by the Home Sec. (had her own expenses problems), to shoot the messenger(s) who try to bring light to murky corridors of power. This is the mis-use of government power; more often seen in totalitarian regimes.
The best would be a hostel but failing that they should work out what a one basic bedroom flat fully furnished with basic necessities would cost to run in London and everybody would get that as an allowance. If they want luxury they pay for it themselves.
John, well done for highlighting the comparison with benefit fraud… The mortgage expenses for a paid off mortgage… Both stealing from the state. Double claiming for two 2nd homes, just as bad… It’s like a couple putting in one crdit card receipt and another till receipt for the same meal in a restaurant- it’s theft, pure and simple.
Yet again, the money is paid back ONLY when they get caught out… Have some pride, come clean
Excellent suggestion.
Agreed Paulene.
As one man in tonight’s audience at Church House put it to the politicians ‘you still don’t get it, you have filed fraudulent claims for expenses’
I think we need a complete clean out of parliament with fresh elections called straight away. We badly want a change of government and speaker, only then can confidence start to be rebuilt over the years for it will take years to get over this crisis and mend the electorates lack of trust in politicans.
I think the speaker should go. He seems to have no judgement!
The expenses saga is a symptom of what’s wrong with our democratic system not the cause. The cause of the problem is a lack of courage amongst politicians. The party leaders, the Speaker, and the MPs have known about this for a long time, yet most of their energy has been spent ignoring it at best and covering it up at worst. People whose job it is to challenge injustice and ‘speak their truth’ are only willing to do so if it gets them votes. In the business world the word ‘politics’ is used to describe things like: covering up the truth to avoid criticism, sucking up to people more powerful, pursuing hidden agendas, and playing games in order to get what you want. Failure to challenge this sort of behaviour is is why Mr Goodwin got away with running RBS into the ground and it is why, for example, Mr Martin is yet to be put to a vote of confidence, even though the majority of MPs think his response has been totally inadequate. As yet he has not been put to the test because it is thought ‘this would hasten a constitutional crisis’. Wake up members of parliament – we’re already in a constitutional crisis when you won’t speak or vote on your conscience unless it gets you a pat on the back, a promotion, or the approval of your peers Do what is right, not what’s easy.
Alas, the truth is filtering out finally. This whole thing would never have come out except under the present PM. Anyone else would have continued to keep quiet. Thank God we now know a bit. So okay, the MPs are digging in the purse. I am just waiting for the upper house. Those pple who reckon they are above the law. I hope they dont go on smiling forever and they are all brought to book. And what do we have? We have an opposition leader who is himself digging it in the purse, pretending he is now a tough man to discipline the MPs. If he could not manage a few MPs properly how do we trust him with the whole economy? At least this whole thing which has gone on forever is now exposed under the present PM. Kudos to him. I hope he does have them independently investigated for the last four years like is been agreed. Cant wait for the upper house. The lower is minute if compared to what will be discovered in the upper house. It is time the whole system is cleaned up. These people have lived like they are above the law for too long. Thank God for the present PM. I have no doubt he will see everyone pilfering punished. Cant wait.
Clearly MPs must be held to account for this scandal. But what of the officials in Parliament’s Fees Office who have decided what to approve. Can confidence be restored if those same officials remain in the Fees Office. It appears they have at least colluded with MPs in playing the system. One report on Andrew MacKay today gave the impression that the Fees Office had encouraged his expense claim for a second home.
I find the whole situation surreal. We are watching our leaders and those who dictate our laws – abuse them and yet this criminality is being approached so gently by the police.
This is not a matter of ‘fiddling the expenses’ it is a matter of theft from the public. People in positions of power who are put there by the people need to be excemplary in the conduct of our business.
Channel 4 News tonight was great journalism as always and Krishnan’s skill drew out the worst defensiveness in the politicians. How can they defend the indefensible and clearly illegal behaviour in themselves and colleagues?
I tried to reason with myself that this isn’t all politicians and there are some, surely who went into politics and stayed clean? … but ALL politicians must be aware of this system and the abuses of it – which makes ALL politicians accessory. Surely if there was ONE GOOD politician, we would have found out about this sytem of abuse long ago.
I wonder at how we ‘fix’ this and feel there is no place in the solution – for our current crop or their methods.
All members of parliament found guilty of claiming inappropriate expenses should not only be made to repay them but also face heavy fines, (within the letter of the rules or not)
I was outraged by the pompous and arrogant response to a member of the public in your audience regarding the trouser press, it’s about time these people realised they are public servants, we don’t serve them.
This corrupt institution needs to be completely swept away and replaced with something that has merit and honor and serves the people of this country.
Members of the house of Lords who have recently been convicted of wrongdoing should also lose their titles, they are a disgrace to the country.
I will not vote Labour or Conservative until they take action to clean up their act and all individuals involved in this corruption have been punished or removed from their respective parties.
If you think these expense claims are bad wait until we can review those for the EU politicians. The accounts for that gravy train have never been signed off by the auditors which shows that a massive amount of misappropriation has been going on there for years.
Isn’t it time to seriously review the political system that we have inherited?
Is it really adequate for today?
The usual answer is -”well it works” etc.
So what,it doesn’t mean that it’s efficient and it doesn’t mean that it attracts the most suitable people.
I’m of the opinion that we don’t live in a democracy but an elected dictatorship because whatever party is returned then they always do their own thing.
When questioned about this the reply tends to be “oh well we live in a democracy so you can vote us out at the next election”.
Not the point is it.
It appears to me that alot of Government action is reactionary-closing the door after the horse has bolted.
Most people I know are not happy and feel that only a show of threat from the electorate will bring about the necessary reform.
The Tax Credits office are chasing me for over £5,000 which was paid in accordance with the correct form filling and ” I acted within the rules” and am now being threatened with prosecution and have had to ask my MP for help.
I go to bed feeling sick and waiting for another knock on the door.
These MP’s should be prosecuted.
I want to see parliament dissolved and a General Election called. As an individual it is difficult to change governments but I am sure that there are many millions of people in UK who feel the way I do. I sit and watch Channel 4 and vent my rage and anger, but how can individuals come together as a mass of people to change the current government? surely there must be someway in which our collective view can be turned into proactive action. All MP’S expenses must, must be audited no exceptions. Reality has to prevail especially in the social circumstances where so many are unemployed, homeless and living in poverty.
I would like to point out a fact about second home accommodation and one which also needs reforming urgently, and this is the necessity of some elderly folk, after working all their lives and paying all due taxes, have to move on to a second accommodation and are required by current legislation to sell their own home to pay for this, i.e. a care/nursing home.
The very fact that an elderly person has to move into care is frightful enough but to add to the distress and insist they sell their property, which has probably taken a lifetime to buy and do up is morally wrong and unfair.
To say I am furious at the news which is emerging is an understatement. Keep up the good work.
Too many MPs seem to be saying, on the one hand, that the system is wrong and needs to be changed, and on the other, that their claims are justifiable because they were within the rules. If an MP cannot judge for him or herself what is morally correct, they have no right to sit in parliament and make laws.
Maybe what we need is a mass movement of voters – millions of us – saying to the leaders of political parties : “Either you immediately expel any member who has made unacceptable claims, or we will never again vote for anyone connected with your party – in June or in the future. We will vote you off the face of the earth.”
I am in complete agreement with this statement. It is time we showed those arrogant politicians that we will not tolerate such nonsense from them.
There has been a lot of debate in all the media about the expenses claims made by MPs.Without exception those debates have addresses the question of standards in public life, of claims made in good or bad faith, and breaches of public trust.All three of those are important issues and should properly be debated, but they substantially miss the point.The point is that each individual MP is sent to exercise his or her judgment on our behalf. An MP who can not see that to claim, or not to claim, for a trouser press from public funds is a matter of judgment, has not got any judgmentWhether ot not the separate claims by a married couple for the expenses of second homes was approved by the parliamentary committee, the making of such claims is a matter of judgment.The mere fact that the question was referred to the committee shows that it was a matter of judgment, on which either view might be thought possible. In the proper exercise of judgment in public life, such claims should not have been made, and people who make them are not fit to be left to make judgmens on our behalf.It is not a question of guilt or innocence.It is not a question of repayment or punishment.It is a question that such people have shown themselves to be without the everyday judgment of the common man.They should not sit in parliament.to make judgments on out behalf.
Peter Breuer
Peter Breuer:
Excellent points
I accept that some MPs need to stay away from their main home when Parliament is sitting. So here’s a suggestion: either they pay for their own accommodation, or they stay at the taxpayer’s expense at purpose-built MPs hotel/dormitory, which provides the basics for self-catering, but where they are allowed to provide their own additional home comforts, again at their own expense. If properly run, this would probably save the taxpayer money, and avoid the need for any expenses claims to be submitted.
Once moored in Portland Harbour, Dorset, was a floating prison HMP Wear (I think)… maybe we can track it back down, press it into service and put it alongside the Palace of Westminster on the Thames. Suitable accommodation I think?
Beheading, Jon. Now that’s an idea
Hi Jon,
I really believe the system should be reformed, and bring back transparency and encourage honesty in the system. But I do believe the current speaker should be changed to ensure an effective overhaul. But one important thing I would love to add is that we should be aware that it was not all MP’s who were involved in making some of the irresponsible claims. It’s like the Daily Telegraph has provided us with the Bad and Ugly, could we know the MP’s that were among the Good.
Kind Regards
Mohammed Abubakar, Crawley West Sussex
I fail to see how Parliament, i.e. the current 600+ MPs can and should be allowed to reform the rules that they recklessly put in place some time ago. This reform needs to be done external to Parliament so it can be transparent to the public. I cannot see how any of the British Public can have any faith in our MPs and it is now neccesary for the British Public to unite and call for a General Election, where these MPs can place their future with the electorate. The situaton will become worse when the local and EU elections are held that Labour will do badly, and they undoutedly will, call for GB’s head (not before time) and if they do replace him, they cannot continue but to call an election as the British Public will expect them to have a mandate to govern for another five years. This would also solve the problem of Speaker Martin.
Indeed the system is broken and is being exposed for what it is – a place where self interest is paramount. We should not forget that along with expenses, two Lords have been suspended (or will be) for lobbying illegally.
We also need to consider what type of people of we want as politicians as the current lot have little practical experience and thus no handle on things as they really are.
And another thing – isn’t party politics stifling true democracy? Where is the translation of the will of the majority of constituents into national policies? Isn’t it about time we got rid of the party system that has failed the country for the past 300 years?
I have worked as a nurse in the NHS for 25 years. If I had committed just the merest fraction of such fraud against the State and the taxpayers as these MPs have done I would have been sacked and never been able to work as a nurse again.
I noted that the Government will be owning the Athlete’s village after the 2012 games. I am sure this will have sufficient capacity to enable housing of all MPs who require a second home in London.
18 months ago I met Sir Michael Howard and my local MP, Philip Davies after Parliament had voted itself an increased pension. I criticised the structure that allowed MPs to control their own pay, expenses and pensions (PEP). They both agreed. Sir Christopher Kelly put it as follows only last month:
‘I think it would almost certainly not happen in any other area of life that a group of people who are interested in the outcome should review their own arrangements on the way they are remunerated.’
We are now seeing that the Speaker who should have controlled the situation does not appear to be effective. In any event he is appointed by Parliament.
It might have been hoped that the House of Lords could have set the PEP but we now have cases reported of bad apples there.
Kate Hoey thinks second houses should be banned from expenses but she is being parochial in assuming all MPs live in her constituency. No fixed sum for expenses can cover the costs faced by MPs who have to travel more than 100 miles each way every day even by train – though Vince Cable does it.
If we had an independent judiciary with no political affiliation (is such a group possible?) perhaps they might judge the PEP due and MPs should accept the allotment whatever should be arrived at.
Consultation and best value are principles that must not be forgotten by MP’s in the rush to end this rotten system. They are owed to the electorate on this and every issue of public expenditure.
To restore trust, the public needs to
a) see parliament explore the cost of all alternative systems to seek best value, and
b) be consulted on the replacement expenses system.
This is the only way to show that self interest is being removed once and for all.
Otherwise it will look like MP’s are not committed to real change, but are simply rushing in another system that suits them rather than their electorate.
For example could they redevelop a site in a regeneration area for an MP’s residence? This would contribute to mixed communities and show willingness to re-connect to their electorate. It would demonstrate willingness to live next to the issues many of their policies are aimed at. It would say they no longer expect to continue living at our expense in exclusive London areas out of reach of most of the electorate. Would this option cost less than paying mortgage interest and rent?
Or if we are paying their rent for second homes, why should they get anything above the Local Housing Allowance paid to those on housing benefit?
It is deeply disappointing that no party or MP is seriously debating or costing all of the alternatives, nor intending to consult their electorate on this.
How can we vote in any election where no parties have proposed a single set of policy options on this important issue?
How can we have confidence in any new expenses system that we don’t have a say in?
How can MP’s deliver a better system if they don’t properly explore the cost of all alternatives?
How can they justify an expense system to meet basic housing ‘needs’ for second homes that is more generous and completely at odds with the policies for meeting housing need of their electorate?
Why is the media not asking these questions?
I’ve written to my MP and received no reply. I’ve never felt so disregarded nor treated with so much contempt as a citizen.
Lorna, I agree with your comments. MPs only seem to be interested when an election is around the corner. Even then, it is only if there is political gain to be made.
When will the title ‘honourable’ be removed from our parliamentary friends?
Good idea. Or replace “Right honourable” by “Wrongly honourable”.
If only it was that easy.
When will we get a serious debate of all the options for a new system, including costs and public opinion?
C4 news tonight…just a smidgin’ of sympathy with Huhne…
An interesting question – how is this going to get approved/vetoed by the people.
Hi John, glad to see CH4 giving the MP’s a rightly deserved public grilling. It appears they still don’t realise the gravity of their wrongdoing and think they deserve the right to claim more than for their basic needs. I would be grateful if you could put it to our right honourable MP’s how they can justify earning their salary plus expenses double my salary, as I only earn 20k per year and do a 700 mile round trip to my work and have mortgage to pay on a flat with negative equity? When and how will this end?
A couple of years ago I suffered from a severe depression. It stopped me from renewing the benefit claims I am entitled too. I have not only lost what is rightfully mine but been made to recompense a so called overpayment. This is money I am truly entitled to but the rules have become so rigourous as regards the appeal process that my long term illness prevented me from receiving the help I deserved. It is for this reason that what these people have done has made me so heartily sick. They think they are above the law, fail to realise how criminal they are and no apology or repayment is going to make a difference.
Surely, now that we can all see our country is in fact governed by “a parcel of rogues”, our parliament is infested with `dishonorable MPs` whose disgraceful behaviour has caused huge public distrust for our political system. It is obvious there are rules the public must adhere to and other rules the politicians interpret as they wish. This must change and it must be seen to be changed. Then we must have a General Election, and anyone who has previously been seen to have manipulated the previous system for personal gain must be barred from seeking re-election on the grounds that they are deemed persons of disreputable character.
Politicians would have us believe that their expenses scandal is no more than a series of “errors” by individual members of the House of Commons and therefore capable of being corrected and normal business soon being resumed.
They would have us believe that this is the disease itself and that they, and only they, have the cure.
I believe that the expenses scandal is merely a symptom, and one of many over the years. Politicians and Political Parties are the disease itself. They can never be part of the cure.
Until a movement emerges from the people to increasingly isolate Politicians and Political Parties we will be forced to endure yet more of the same.
Wake up!
All that is needed for evil to flourish is that good men do nothing.
Shame on them all… We have elections soon. I think we should ALL vote en mass, but deface our papers. It would send the right message, if defaced papers got the majority of the vote
No – don’t deface your ballot paper! At the end of the day someone is going to get elected and we need to make sure it’s not an extremist party! By all means vote Green or for a new candidate – an extremist party would take things from bad to worse.
I see what’s happening here. I tried submitting a couple of comments but they’ve been ignored (as I’m sure this one will be). All C4 News want are anti-politician, anti-democracy comments and no intelligent debate about the nature of our democracy. Shame on you C4.
Hi Graham….please continue I think Snowstormers are more focussed on their own contributions before commenting on others..keep the faith…Peter Snowstormer
Take advice Jon..call David Starkey.
Peter
The vote was hard fought…..please vote..Peter
Just come back from the pub builder overheard commenting `shame really flipping good while it lasted`
Can you expand Femi..?
Mohammed Abubakar:
Not all MP’s may have made fraudulent claims – but ALL are aware of how the system is abused.
One decent politician did not come forward to make it clear that the public was being robbed.
Jon, it’s the emperor’s new clothes. The system has been bad for years and no one has said anything. Now it’s all coming ‘undone’. A much-needed shake-up and no more paying for moats.
And please reign Krishnan in a little, he is getting a bit Kilroyesque.
With all this “stuff” going on, I am reminded of a quote “democracy breads bureaucracy, bureaucracy breads aristocracy, and from aristocracy comes revolution. Are we seeing the beginnings of aristocracy and the possibility of revolution (maybe revulsion would come first)?
Keep on about those Lords Jon!
What suprises me the most about this public outcry is, the suprise! These corrupt politicians and their rich cronies have been at this fraud game for decades. They ruin peoples and family lives via their evil laws, yet they are tantamount to being far worse than any so called ‘terrorist’ attack yet. They manipulate the system in order to avoid prosecution, repremand and avoid being sacked. They do this with arrogance and, just laugh at a weak gullible public.
It’s a pity they can’t be removed by proper physical force.
It must be said though that, most of the rich & upper class are very versed in the art of fraud, manipulation, bribes and, they enjoy the laws that favour and positively encourage their evil deeds.
The comment by Pauline above, that has recieved 18 votes is what should happen.
Remember Sir Gerald Nabarro leaving court having been found not guilty of crashing his RR whilst under the influence? Asked to comment, he said something very, very like “If you’ve got money you can buy justice”
You got your comment published I see!
You are wrong with your perception of the public outcry. Of course most of the comments seem anti politician. The politicians acts are anti public.
Britain is full of greedy corrupt people, who impact far worse than any so called ‘terrorists’ on poor voiceless/powerless people. On a global scale I may add.
You will note how comments will become more balanced in a few years or, decades, if ever this scum is controlled. I fear this is unlikely due to human selfishness & greed and, there are few genuine moralistic individuals attaining office.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard a politician, no matter how hard pressed by an interviewer, and now matter how blatant the cockup to admit to making a mistake. Yet in the current climate politicians are queuing up to admit their mistakes in accounting and judgement over their expenses. I can only presume they see this as a lesser evil of admitting a mistake and admitting outright fraud.
Watching Question Time last night I was disappointed at the way some of the audience offered crumbs of condolence to these people by clapping them. Then of course the guilty amongst them got brave and started taking the upper hand. Menzies Campbel actually managed to focus on the boys in Afghanistan who were killed this week and got a round of applause for changing the subject! Jon can you do me a big favour. Stop interviwees from parliament saying “LOOK” It’s a Blairism and I don’t want to be reminded of that man. The reason that RBS banker (in the news this morning) got his full pension, wasn’t because of some lord’s naieity at all. It’s because they’re all in it together.Has anyone else noticed just how many Lords there are nowadays being interviewed in connection with all this? They really must think it’s a real title worth having. Oh dear. AND I too used to do a 64 mile round trip to my work and never got a penny for my efforts.
[...] Author: Jon Snow|Posted: 10:33 am on 15/05/09 Category: Snowblog | Tags: Brithday honours/ Hazel Blears/ House of Lords/ Jacqui Smith/ John Major/ Michael Foot/ Michael Martin/ MPs expenses/ Parliament/ Tony Benn I am very struck by the huge response to both Snowblog and Channel 4 News this week – high-quality contributions and a number of very personal comparisons with what is happening in regard to disclosure of MPs‘ arrangements. Stan, as you return to work today after nine months without a job, I wish you well. [...]
You promised last night on C4 news to discuss “root and branch reform” but you didnt! Can we raise the matter strongly and consistently please. Expenses are a side issue, the real issue is the undemocratic system of FPTP and elected dictatorships. Why is that never discussed?
Yes I wish you well too Stan. Keep your confidence up as it’s easilly lost when you have been out of work for a period.
JON SNOW FOR PRIMINISTER.
HE`S GOT MY VOTE
LOUI CORRY
My home is ‘Banded’ for local council tax purposes. Why can not constituances be ‘Banded’ in a like manner according to what they cost to maintain? Fair for all and a quick solution.
They should convert a building into dorms for MPs, get rid of those who have fiddled the system, within the rules or not, make sure the only thing that can then be claimed for are office expenses. Petrol or travel should done by using a card that either lets them get petrol or train fares which those companies claim back. Dont let them claim anything more than what is needed to do their job.
Bankers,Hedge Fund Managers and all similar ” trough feeders”.
Why aren’t all the senior management of such corrupt organisations facing prosecution ?
Why isn’t there a huge outcry to expose this corruption?
Is it because our government and all various party members are all invoved?
We are talking of trillions of pounds here not a few thousand.
Is our attention being taken off the major issue?
Where has all the money gone that they had access to before the crash?
I’m of the opinion that they have stashed it all away for themselves and their cronies.
If you are in charge of large sums of money,you don’t simply lose it-you choose to lose it by giving it to others,by buying or creating bogus companies that they can throw money into,pocket it and then write it off as a loss to the original investors.
They then say it wasn’t my fault it was simply a bad investment-b******s.
The whole thing about the money market is that it attracts very keen and clear minded individuals not nit wits.
We are fed up with being taken for a ride by all these people.
They need to be removed and replaced with people who work for the benefit of all.
I lay the blame at every single voter in this nation, why because the majority of the people have buried our heads in the sand when it comes to parliamentary business and bankers regulations.
To me it seems all well and good that the people are angry about this, as I am too. but maybe we should take some personal accountability because for the last 10 years we have become a culture who’s primary news stories is based on talentless clebs and there torrid lifestyles. If the general population took more interest into the workings of the government system and less in who’s divorcing who, these types of wrong doings wouldn’t be so blatant.
In a democracy every single person has to be responsible for the actions of the nation and that goes beyond just turning up at the ballot box every once and a while. We can’t bury our heads in the sand and expect everything to work. The electorate has to ensure the foundations of the democracy survives and not spend a unhealthy amount of time invading other peoples lives.
100% agreement JB.
Here is your answer Jon.
It’s the apathy of this Nation that requires reform. Most people don’t even know the name of their MP.
How will Channel 4 address the challenge of educating the silent majority?
Why do MPs feel we underpay them?
They have given 75% of their responsibility & power to another body, the EEC
Any other organisation which lost 75% of its workload would be forced to implement Employee Pay Cuts or Redundancies, or both.
MPs Pay and Pensions MUST be reduced every time they give away a power to the EEC.
Before MPs get any pay rise ever again, let them earn it by clawing back our National Sovereignty from Europe.
JOHN
We must strip away the Ermine Robes and Privileges of our most dishonourable House of Lords.
How can Peers profit by arranging to get Laws imposed on the British people.
Why is the forecast punishment of “temporary suspension” so ludicrously light for the 2 Peers found Guilty ! They should be thrown out.
And, how can Lord Snape escape with an “apology” after already being found Guilty of expressing a “clear willingness” to breech the Peer’s Code of Conduct by the Lords Interest Sub-Committee ?
Lord Snape’s defence that there is no modern definition of the word “Honour” is totally outrageous.
If Lord Snape does not understand the meaning of the word “Honour”, he should not hold any office in which he represents other people’s interests.
WHO O.K.d ALL THE EXPENSES ?
DID THE PERSON WHO AGREED THE EXPENCES CLAIMS GET SOMETHING IN RETURN? HAS HE/SHE BEEN SACKED OR QUESTIONED?
HHHAS ANY REPORTER INVESTIGATED THIS?
Are you are boxer….
I do not believe we live in a democratic society and we are basically living in a one party state.
At the next election, the ballot paper should have a box which states “I do not choose any of the above”.
We currently have a system whereby a party can form a Government with less than 50% of those eligible to vote- this is hardly representative of the views of the people in this country.
The voting system itself is also flawed because it not does not ensure that a vote is anonymous. I would invite all of those not convinced of this statement to watch what happens the next time you are at the polling station.
You will observe someone cross-checking a number which is next to your name and then writing it on the counterfoil attached to the ballot paper !
Yes there have been many sacrifices to allow us to vote; however, for the reasons stated above I will not be voting in future elections..Time for electoral reform.
Time for electoral reform. ?? Your quote Natasha….you comment and offer critique without a solution..what’s your way forward…a response please and well argued..no knee jerking please…..Peter
Peter, thank you for your comments.
Yes I have criticised and I feel with good cause. One point I would like to add is that even if there were no immediate solution, it is very important to question a system which is inherently wrong, unrepresentative and immoral.
A solution would be that a party only forms a Government with at least 50% of the eligible vote. I would also suggest that a Government and its party has to carry out what it is elected to do. Afterall, that is the mandate in which they have been elected.
I appreciate that during a term circumstances may change. However, at present there has been too many instances of “broken promises”. I would also suggest that the elected Government is reviewed after two years, as (I believe) is the case in America.
I would be interested to hear your suggestions.
I do not believe that we live in a democratic society.
At the next election, the ballot paper should have a box which states “I do not choose any of the above”.
We currently have a system whereby a party can form a Government with less than 50% of those eligible to vote-this is hardly representative of the views of the people in this country.
Yes there have been many sacrifices to allow us to vote; however, for the reasons stated above I will not be voting in future elections..Time for electoral reform.
Having watched this slow motion carcrash for the last week or so feeling a mixture of horror and glee several things have been impressed on me.
1) The main ‘excuse’ for all the alleged wrongdoing seems to be ‘because the fees office said I could’. Who are the ‘fees office’, what oversight are they given and what training/qualifications do they need to do their job.
2) Several people have already commented and I agree – why aren’t there accommodation blocks for MPs to use whilst parliament is in session. Many hospitals maintain them for their staff, universities maintain them for their students. We’re going to have an Olympic Village going spare in a couple of years. That’d do. What makes an MP so special?
3) The astonishing lack of judgement shown by MPs of all parties. And we ‘trust’ these people to run the nation?
4) There are many MPs who acted properly and in accordance with the rules and their own moral compass. EXCEPT they stood by and let blatant corruption happen every day. There is no way to justify that.
5) It could be worse. We are still a democracy. The local and european elections won’t solve the immediate problem except to give them a wake up call. But the current regime cannot be regarded as anything but the lamest of lame ducks. Time to end this.
OK – so David Starkey has pointed out that successive Labour Governments has so bastardised our Parliamentary Procedure it’s no longer fit for purpose as is our (unwritten) Constitution.
OK – so the avarice, immoral and amoral behaviour of our MPs has shown they also are no longer fit for purpose.
OK – for goodness sake stop moaning! All it takes is enough of us to withhold our vote at the next election to prevent any Party gaining legitimacy!
OK – what next? Should this happen the incumbent government would remain in power as a caretaker Authority until such time as the people’s apolitical representatives come up with an acceptable long-term reform for the future.
OK – what about Europe? Clearly in considering any future Constitutional Arrangements the experts must know if we’re prepared to accept being governed by Brussels. If we do we’d only need a couple of hundred MPs; if we don’t then we’ll need to employ double this number.
OK – either go for it or accept the status quo, whatever, stop moaning! We’ve put up with it for years why change now?
I am angry about the way in which MPs have claimed expenses from our hard earned money. I like a lot of people have to economise and buy cheap items and wait for the sales.
I question the rules which have enabled the MPs to claim expenses, but also think that morally they should have questioned their own actions. MPs earn enough money to pay for their own luxuries.
There are many people in this country who cannot afford to buy food, never mind being able to pay for a mortgage, carpets and redecorations.
All the money which has been claimed by MPs should be paid back and given to the less well-off in this country.
The Queen should dissolve Parliament. In the resultant election the “good” MPs should be given an automatic “Bye” and returned. The “bad” MPs should be de-selected, barred from Parliament for life and be replaced by new (locally selected) candidates.
Given Blair’s purer than pure speech and the following years of utmost sleazeand moral decline in the parliamentary system, should we not criminally prosecute ALL dodgers. It is not the system that is wrong, it is the systemic corruption of the MPs and Lords that operate that system.
Given Brown is an advocate of retrospective legislation should we not reinvestigate previous offenders “excused” by Parliaments self policing, including examples like Peter Mandelson and Keith Vaz.
Given the non-action from the Nolan report and the shocking hounding out of Elizabeth Filkin should we not remove policing entirely from the hands of Parliament.
Given the unfettered use of MPs positions and insider information to make money in the commercial world, should it be a condition of employment that they cannot use this for up to 5 years after leaving Parliament and never whilst in post.
However, notwithstanding the expenses row, never forget what the Labour party has done to this country by its indecent approach to the use of taxpayers money. We are both morally and financially bankrupt and the guilty will simply walk away into the sunset and make more money. Who will prosecute Brown for trading whilst insolvent?
The Government has a fiduciary duty to the Tax-payer. That duty has not been met. Can Gordon Brown be prosecuted for this failure in his role as First Lord of the Treasury?
Oliver Cromwell stands upon his plinth outside of Parliament. Perhaps we should go and visit – a Million person march to physically enter and occupy Parliament, staging a sit in until a General Election is called?
Having this opportunity to air our opinions is good but will it be taken on board by the powers that be to bring about the changes that we are seeking?
I would like to see an on-line straw polling survey where people like ourselves could chose from a list of proposals and C4 could mention the results on their programme.
We need a “People’s Charter” – ring any bells?
The problem is these poor politicians dont have accomodation in London. May I suggest that instead of knocking down those hight rise council flats at Elephant and Castle — we hand over the thwo nearly emply buuilding to the Parliament. Its just over a mile from their to westminster. Would sort out everyone london flat proplems in a tick and they could even jog there in a good summers days.
I have just watched the bumbling shambolic speaker, Mike Martin, obfuscating his way through another session without any material impact on the Commons, the World or anything really. Ably abetted by luminaries such as Stuart Bell.
What it demonstrates starkly is that your original thesis: – does the system need root and branch reform is truly accurate.
The reform should cover all aspects of the Commons, the Lords, the British Constitution etc!! However, were the reform programme split into various aspects, the expenses and remuneration strand should examine local councils and government agencies/quangos to see if there is the same magnitude of problem as there is in the MPs expenses issue. I bet we do.
Great stuff Jon.
This kind of debate is long overdue.
Britain has got to join the 21st century.
We need a written constitution.
Although it will take some time to change, we need to broaden the base from where the political and media classes are drawn. They are too intertwined.
A great many of us are not prepared to sit back and be governed, we want to interact and shape our country’s future and the democracy that we live.
Politicians are focusing on the narrow interests of the economy and big business. What about climate change what about sustainable development?
A vote for a party is definitely not sufficient enough to represent the complexity of what our societies are now demanding of us. We need change.
Here we are, working people. Harrassed hither and thither by Key Parameters and targets dreamed up by some madman. All on the basis that none of us can be trusted to do a honest job and this by people that can’t get there expenses right.
I am looking for some direction in case I have missed a major article in the last 10 days that has focussed on the role and functions of the Parliamentary Fees Office,particularly in respect of the present debacle.
I genuinely want to understand the main functions of the Office and how they are carried out as well as their formal relationship with the Speaker ,government and MPs.I have seen reference to the Green Code .Is it it obtainable online ?
But what concerns me most is how the the Office has been reported to have functioned in their relationship with MPs and vice versa over this whole issue of expenses and other issues that fall within their remit.Sometimes the PFO seem to be advisors ,interpreters and final court of appeal on expenses .On others ,they seem to be subject to pressure from MPs.Whilst accepting they are human ,contradictory decisions seem to be made by their officers on identical cases.Equally ,much of the reported advice and the decisions emanating from the Office seem to beggar belief .Can someone in the the Press or Media offer some hope to the public by throwing a floodlight on this very shady aspect of the whole expenses issue.No one in government information services has been rushing to provide answers to these questions
With the present system an election will only yield a new styeful of pigs to feed at the trough. Should not Her Majesty the Queen dissolve Parliament immediately and impose temporary Military Rule whilst we sort things out?
Jon, amazing day but only using the benchmark of a very disgraced political class. In the real world was it that spectacular? One old, spent and slightly seedy dinosaur chucked off his capacious backside and a mind-blowing revelation that self-regulation does not work. Any consulting work going in Parliament?
When will we hear about the criminal investigations or are the police only reserved to investigate whistle blowers?
When will we hear about the wholesale investigation of the Lords and their expenses, their efficacy, their numbers and raison d’etre?
Brown talked about deselecting MPs who had transgressed. Gosh, I am sure that they are quaking in their boots! Perhaps the commercial model of the cardboard box and being escorted off the premises by security would be much more appropriate for these rogues.
Brown talked about the building up of systems and processes etc, well what on earth were he, Tony Blair and the Labour government doing all these years. They were elected partly because the sleaze card was played but I am aghast that they have done absolutely nothing about this for all these years.
Brown talked about the old boys club but he is at the centre of it all. Do you recall when he was ranting about elitism some years ago? The cleansing cannot really get under way whilst this man is still in office.
Finally, why do these MPs only ever learn retrospectively and then slip into hero management mode to fire fight the mess. This could all have been predicted, like all the great disastrous expensive projects the government has undertaken in the last 10 years.
So in conclusion why would we expect a singularly failed organisation to radically reform itself. Let the culling begin.
I’ve been looking at the major political party websites over the past few days and all you seem to get is the old usual fudge and nothingness.
These people are simply unconcerned about public opinion until threatened by some action against them.
Will major civil unrest be the only answer? I’m not advocating it but it makes you think.
Anyway,I decided to look at the other minority partys to see what they have to offer us in this so called democracy that we live in.
By the way,Shirley Williams on Radio 4 this morning,openly admitted that Parliament is not run in a democratic way at all as members are forced to vote as dictated by their party.
Another good point that she made was,”why keep repairing the roof when the whole building needs updating”.
I looked at the BNP website and I found that most of their policy proposals appealed to me. I know their previous racialist associations; I’m not a racialist and never will be. I’m tempted to give them my vote just to get some positive reaction.
After watching and listening to the news i really dont think the politicians of this country have got any idea, what they have done. How can we trust them to put in a new system? The only way to sort this rubbish out will be to bar all 3 Major partys from the next general election. The reason i say this is, if they can not be trusted with the powers of this country, as they have allready show us, and that we can not trust them anymore to behave properly, how the hell can we trust them to make things better.
If we are going to have a great country again then all MP’s must stand down.
In doing this they will give the people the country back. Then we the people can make a new parliment, after a new election. I hope new blood would sweep clean and change the political system for the better. This would put the confideance back into the political system of this country.
In short we need a complete new system and one not devised by the same people who ruined the one we had.
To all our seving MP’s Please take note and dont defend yourselves, stand down now and give the people back our country. Untill you do this then the people will not trust you.
Dear Jon,
Was it Oscar Wilde who coined the Aphorism ” Parliament, the last refuge of the scoudrel ? ” That would have been in the 1890′s, so what’s new ?
They have always been at it !!
Cameron keeps sqealing for a General Election, but what would his bunch of Old
Etonians and multi millionaires do for
ordinary people of the country ? They talk
of the Playing Fields of Eton, but what do they play there ? How to milk and
fleece The Peasants when in power.
Loads of these Mega rich parasites are
swilling about in ths morass, crying
” Foul!”
In any case,Heaps of these CROOKS in
Parliament have Honours degrees in Politics and Law, and they will drive a coach and pair through any legislation drawn up!
A sorry picture indeed. Methinks I hear
the sound of tumbrils !
Sincerely,
John H.
What astonishes me is people are surprised by M.P’s dishonesty.
Like the Churchill adverts on TV, they use a lie to try to convince you they are telling the truth. Uses words like ‘Credit Crunch’ and ‘War on Terror’, have us believing they actually care and are acting in our best interests.
This year has exposed the corruption of the state, both the Police and Westminister have been shown for who they really are, now it is the Catholic church. If we live by their rules does this make us as corrupt as them.
James Priest
In this moment now of justified public outrage for major political reform what happens?
Parliament shuts up shop for 10 days!!!!!!!
I know it’s their usual holiday break but come on shouldn’t they have sat and used this period to come up with a plan following our demands?
They all seem to have side stepped any individual commitment to reform by saying that the next Speaker will be given that task.
Someone I’m lead to believe will be elected by them????!!!!
Surely it should be an independant person who is unbiased and has an auditor/compliance role.
Strikes me as more delay and fudge in order to ignore us and hope that our feelings fade once again into dumb acceptance of this system of how it’s been,and how it will continue to be.
Perhaps we need a modern day Guy Fawkes to motivate this bunch of clowns into truly being our representatives and not their own or that of their party.
Why doesn’t Channel 4 now take the lead and put together a series of programmes about reforming our political system?
I would suggest that they start off by explaining how we have arrived at what we’ve got and then go onto say what we should have in place now.
There should be a cross selection of voters in the series who decide what is required and when it should be introduced.
No politicians,lawyers or anyone from the establishment should participate until after the final proposals have been stated.
I’m still suprised by the total lack of connection of some MPs with the electorate when they are now saying that the public have woken up and are now asking these questions.
Well the masses have always had this opinion but have never been listened to or given an opportunity to air their views and as such have stopped voting because to them it’s a waste of time.
By doing this have they fallen into the hands of the political classes?
Come on Channel 4 do something.