Do we know why we're in Afghanistan?
Does anyone out there understand why we are in Afghanistan under arms?
Is this the least understood, least cared about conflict involving British troops dying under fire since, well, Northern Ireland? That’s not fair, people did understand Northern Ireland. They didn’t like bombs exploding in British mainland cities.
Of late the same argument has come to be advanced over the war in Afghanistan. This is a war to make British streets safer, the Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth told us recently. Does that explain why the terror threat level in the UK has just been lowered? Are we winning?
The war in Iraq was well understood. It was a war of choice, the country had oil, we wanted to retain our trans-Atlantic ‘influence’ with the United States. But Afghanistan?
I first went there in 1969. I drove a bus across the gorgeous desert wastes. I drank sharp brown sugared tea in Kandahar. Couldn’t do that these days. It felt like a place worth living for, but dying for?
I was next there on Boxing Day 1979. I had crossed from Mashad in North Eastern Iran where I had been covering the Islamic Revolution. This was during the first week of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Even then, I couldn’t see then why Russians would want to die there. And they didn’t. They were gone in a decade.
Britain has now been there, this time round, for very nearly as long – nearly eight years. Today four dead British soldiers will be flown home. The observant and dutiful people of Wootton Bassett will do their stuff and we shall move on. Or shall we?
Will we so easily be able to ignore today’s court case in which the Ministry of Defence attempts to cut the compensation paid to soldiers injured in the line of fire and duty?
Will we be able to ignore the court case in which the charity Reprieve tries to get to the bottom of the UK’s involvement in ‘allowing’ prisoners to be rendered through British territories like the Indian Ocean islands of Diego Garcia to be tortured?
Are we bored when the subject of Afghanistan dominates the news agenda? Do we give a damn? Or is this the nature of modern war?
We were once told that if people had KNOWN of the wholesale slaughter in the First World War, there would have been a rebellion over sending any more of our fathers and sons to die.
Today we know almost nothing of the true scale of amputation, paralysis, brain damage, mental breakdown that is flowing from the poppy fields of Afghanistan. We know nothing of the numbers of death and injury amongst the Afghans themselves.
If we did, would it affect the way we felt about the war? Perhaps it would, perhaps that is why we don’t know the true scale and nature of injury that accompanies the recorded British deaths in action.
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Strikes me that it is long past time the human race moved beyond spending vast sums on development and manufacture of weapons designed to kill others, obliterate other countries, etc. We describe ourselves as an “intelligent species” yet still devote significant resources in killing each other. Were we to stop this and devote those resources to something productive and useful we might be able to start addressing poverty, people living in “in-humane” conditions, famine, etc.
The move this goes on and that so many accept the need for wars begins to make me question the longer term future of the human race. Ignoring the fact that we still insist on making our planet unsuited for us to live on (e.g. through waste disposal policies, use of resources, global warming and pollution, etc.), the fact we cannot settle differences without starting to kill each other is just beyond belief. The “defending ourselves” or “defending our rights” and the numerous other excuses our leaders use to justify their military activities and just farcical. And then the justifications change as the various reasons given are found to be false.
Maybe we should be expecting a bit of leadership from our leaders; a bit “intelligence” in finding alternatives to the “you kill us, we kill you until …”. Disappointing that all they can do is to continue the behavior the human race has followed through history. And of course it is never their fault, “they were just responding …”, they were just “protecting their population …”, etc. Yet the result is humans killing other humans.
Jon – If only YOU were PM instead of the useless, unelected oaf currently infesting Downing Street, we might stand a chance of preventing our country getting into illegal and unwinable wars around the planet.
Would you consider standing?
)
Since I was born Jon, (1979) British troops have been involved continuosly in one conflict or another up to present day. It seems like war has become the usual state of affairs.
Hi Jon
Thank you for your comments on Afghanistan.
Isn’t the real issue that nobody appears to be sure what we are trying to do? We have no real objective just vague aims. Indeed we have been guilty of doing the hokey-cokey on the issue of Opium.
We cannot win until we have actual objectives rather than vacuous ones from politicians soundbites. Whilst they continue with this ill-defined war our soldiers are being killed and maimed in a campaign which we are likely to have to retreat from just like Basra.
When you compare our politican’s treatment of themselves to their latest effort to reduce soldiers compensation the only polite phrase I can come up with is shameful.
Your inclusion of J Major tonight, beggars belief, probably due to your own high level of vanity. Major is personally reponsible for the massive reduction in money to the War Graves Commission {WGC} to subsidise tax cuts. Major is a sick individual, and our glorius war dead deserve better. It did not rate a mention in his memoirs. Snow, you really do need to get a life, had you challenged him re the WGC that might have sufficed.Major cares not a jot for war injured or dead. Too much ego.
The idea of winning a war in Afghanistan is patently absurd. Will we never learn the lessons of history? Brown’s attempts to link the safety of our streets to the need to fight the Taliban is an insult to our intelligence. Surely our invasion and occupation of that country, coupled with the high civilian casualties inflicted by our ‘air support’ (called in to protect our troops) are far more likely to make our streets less safe? Radical islamists have repeatedly cited the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions as justification for attacking the UK. We should leave now before any more of our troops and any more innocent Afghans are killed in this pointless conflict.
Hi David,
I agree with your comments. I wish those others that voted in agreement would also offer some comments.
This is fast becoming the UK’s Vietnam moment….the electorate will not accept this as a continuing and justifiable conflict. Nor should they.
Politicians in power are feeding the PM .
Those that have resigned, left or jumped ship to fight another day, should have the political balls to declare their position.
I see no balls.
I certainly don’t understand why we feel it is our duty to be the policeman of the world. Do we really think we have got everything so right that we should impose our way of life on the rest of the world?
Logic tells me that the threat from extremist must be increased by the fact that our troops and our bombs have killed thousands of Iraqis and Afghans in recent years.
The ‘we know best’ attitude of empire is taking a long time to disappear.
One measure I would introduce immediately – no head of state is allowed to declare war unless (s)he or their partners and/or children will be in the front line. Would Blair have been so quick to invade Iraq if his kids had been in danger and not someone else’s?
HI Saltaire Sam or are you Saltire Sam…
Head of State. and unwritten constitution.
Is you reference to the Monarch or the Prime Minister?.
I agree with your comments.
Well, we’re told ‘it’s to keep us safer’!
Given all the down right lies, spin, scare mongering, etc. that we’re fed via the government, I don’t believe a word of it.
The only people messing ordinary peoples lives up are the government, evil corporate fat-cats, banks and the rich dominating the resources. These are the true ‘Terrorists’ that need imprisoning.
I think neither the Afghanistan nor Iraq invasions will result in long-lasting, improved security. No person likes an foreign force being imposed on them. Surely, it is better to work with the Taliban to improve the lives of the Afghan people?
It is desperately sad that a large number of talented honorable people have had their lives cut short or ruined in both the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions.
A booklet which, I think, came free with a copy of The London Review of Books, entitled ‘Afghanistan: Why We Should Get Out’ has an introduction by John Pilger; he never speaks less than the whole truth.Paragraph two explains a great deal.
What of the Taliban prisoners and casualties – we never hear anything about them: where are they from, how are they trained or where are they kept (and how) when captured?
I’m ex-special forces sniper from the 1980s (not the UK or the US, but a NATO friend). We used to watch films in our training, the films civilians will never, ever see. Medical training films from war theatre, in particular Vietnam. If people saw that, or the reality of what is happening in Afghanistan, they wouldn’t support it past Friday (and Gordon Brown would be spat at in the street). Censorship has a purpose.
I would recommend Noam Chomsky’s book Hegemony or Survival and/or the film ‘Body of Lies’ by Ridley Scott for an insight into American and consequently British foreign policy. The mission in Afghanistan is strategic – that is why all stated aims are fudged.
You have outlined the moral stance and of course when we identify with it stomachs churn in disgust.
We dont know the full extent of what goes on in Aghanistan…. thank God for my ignorance……..and if we did perhaps there would be no troops.
You have seen more than the majority of us, because of your job, so we will believe in what you have seen in your tireless task to communicate and change attitudes to violence.
Many have commented on the nature of man, the nature of man in relation to their god and his overiding animal instincts of territorial marking, power to dominate and self interest/ group interest.
What do we do ? Perhaps we ought to ask David Attenborough as education education and more education hasn’t improved minds. It hs served to increase dogma and narrow perspectives, just as the reading of religious text and adhering to words and not meanings has led other persuasions down the wrong paths.
Emotive communication as in music often elevates the acts of violence.Plays and films do the same.. hero worshippers,…. works of art which depict savagery are appreciated for their aesthetic value.
Blunt truth and empathy… who wants that ?
Virtually all wars waged by one nation against another have two reasons…the popular and the political or economic.
Why are we in Afghanistan? Ask most people with NATO troops there and they probably won’t be able to tell you.
The longer any such conflict continues, the more vague the popular reason for being there becomes.This is where the news media often falls short…in educating people to the history of conflicts.
For example, the Arab-Israeli conflict, now localized into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, has been going on since before 1948. But, how many people in the West actually know what the cause was? Today, most of the UK TV media plays up the plight of the Palestinians as if the cause of the conflcit is Israeli reprerssion. Wrong!
America was sold the Vietnam lie for 15 years…that we were there to defend the world against a Communist takeover and to keep South Vietnam free. For awhile, wrapped in our long held brainwashed fear of the Red Menace, we bought this idea.
But it was TV and especially the late Walter Cronkite, who educated us to the realities of why wer were there and why our presence wss doomed to failure.
“Are we bored when the subject of Afghanistan dominates the news agenda? ”
You know, maybe we are. But hopefully we all recognise that it’s our duty to pay attention, even if the story is boring. It’s our duty to care about those of us who are over there. And it’s our duty to ask the questions that you just asked.
I am ashamed of my country for allowing our wicked politicians to embark on butchery abroad for no good reason.
I understand that the government pension paid in Germany is approximately £23,000.
Germany has better managed its finances than the UK. The UK has had theoportunity to build an economy that provides for the retired.
The UK has ben badly governed, that government elected by an unimaginative electorate often illeducated.
The debate raging around financial support for the traumatised and seriously injured serviceman from Afghanistan and Iraq is another payment, a life supporting pension.
The Government, and any future goernment is busy doing the maths to meat the financial burden of the retiring baby boomers.
We hear talk from Lord Turner’s Report that we will have to work longer to maintain a retiring population that will increasingly live longer .
What pension do the UK provide to the retired?
The lifetime cost to a young survivor of the war in Afghanistan will be similarly paultry.
Those young servicemen will also live longer, have better surgery and drug regimes that wil prolong their life and trauma.
I despair at the cant retoric that is churned out by any Prime Minister that can commit the country to war and consquential death.
Equally I do not understand the mind set of any person wishing to join up and risk death and injury whilst being told by a suited politician that he/she will be fighting a just war in defence of the UK .
A lesson in survival…don’t join the armed forces.
Lessons in life:
Read the small print, none of us do because the issues at risk are not deemed serious enough.
But place me in a combat training environment whilst being screamed at by a Regimental Sergeant Major is enough for me to say ‘No Thanks’.
And what of the dead in Afghanistan and Iraq, how many?
You and I will never know…..but we should know.
Operation Panthers Claw that was, I understand, aimed at clearing the ground to enable the election process in Afghanistan, is a mindless operation.
That area of land that has cost so many lives, is the area of the Isle of Wight, so the press reports.
How many of you reading this believe that this ground will not drift back into Taliban control?
I suspect none.
No paultry incomes, let alone pensions for politicians..eh!
No votes and no comments…..Hmmm
I have just heard a tale that is worthy of investigation. My son is a soldier, on two weeks leave from the war in Afghanistan. He returns there tomorrow. On Monday, he visited a wounded mate at the military hospital in Birmingham. On his arrival, he found two other mates there, both of whom had lost both legs in a recent IED incident.
My son and I were discussing the recent controversy about compensation for the wounded soldiers. He told me that soldiers who have lost their legs need good compensation, for the following reason. The Army do not equip them with the best artificial limbs, the ones that have maximum movement. They simply provide them with the most basic of artificial limbs. Most spend their compensation on the more up to date limbs, with greater movement and dexterity.
Could this possibly be true? If so, I think it should be publicised. The idea that these young men, who have risked life and, literally, limb, deserve the very best of medical care that is available to them.
You are absolutely right! These talented young people who have to execute the Government’s plans should receive the best possible treatment. Even if I do not agree with the war it is a crime not to provide the best possible treatment and opportunities for these brave and talented individuals. This really would be worthy of investigation and rectification.
Dear Jon Snow,
Re: – This Unlawful War.
Now that the 188th British Soldier has been killed in Afghanistan, philosophy teaches us that ‘Those who cannot learn from history are condemned to repeat those same mistakes of the past’. (George Santayana, 1952) . So for the avoidance of doubt…
1. The Russian Army also unlawfully invaded Afghanistan in 1979 and held it by force for 16 years, then retreated after sacrificing 14453 soldiers and uncounted civilian dead
2. The US Army conducted an unlawful war of aggression against the sovereign states of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia for 20 years from 1955 to 1975.
3. Moreover 58315 young American lives were also sacrificed in this unlawful war, only to see full-scale retreat on 30th April 1975, after 2.75 million civilians were killed.
So please lets learn the lesson of history and recognise that the root cause of Islamic Terrorism lies not in Afghanistan, but in Palestine. For the killing of 350 Gaza children many of them asleep in their beds by US supplied Munitions (In January 2009) has stoked the fires of Jihadists worldwide. So if you’re truly desire to resolve this problem on a permanent basis, then it behoves you to resolve the Palestinian problem.
The UK strategy for Afghanistan is fundamentally flawed as (a) Parliament did not vote for it and therefore this invasion is an Unlawful Act. (b) Its Based on the BIG LIE about WMD and (c) Attacks the effects rather than the causes of Terrorism. The root cause Mr Prime Minister lies in Palestine and no amount of flowery MOD Press Releases attempting to defend the indefensible, alters the fact that this immoral, illegal and unconstitutional act of aggression on Afghanistan is not supported by a majority of the public, nor our NATO allies, who see it for what it really is, a Breach of Article 1 of United Nations Charter 1945.
After all “War is too serious a thing to be left to Military Men”, (Charles de Talleyrand 1813) and if you wish to see how divisive this issue will eventually become, please check out Kent State University, 4th May 1970.
So when you are in a hole…stop digging!
Yours Sincerely,
Michael J. Ponsonby BA.
Bromsgrove, Worcs.
I am sick and tired of reading and listening to Brits about the dead and wounded in the armed forces.
What about the Afghans?
Who gave us the right to invade murder and destroy a country?
Britain has been doing this for close to 400 years.
I may be wrong but I don’t recall any, Asian, African, Moslem or any others sending soldiers to kill and destroy the British.
What is the matter with us?
Who do we think we are?
We are really beyond the pale.
No, I don’t know, why; The United Kingdom is still in Afghanistan working on the situation in the country….
Probably, because the International Community went into Afghanistan to assist the country following the ouster of the Taliban (Taleban) out of country….Following the 11 September 2001 attacks in the United States…
-Dennis Junior-
following a few centuries of aggression by the Christian world!
It would be interesting to see from Channel 4′s correspondents what the campaigning Afghan politicians have to say about the presence of NATO troops, are they pro? anti? Indifferent?
Also is there any polling within Afghanistan on public opinion on the same subject?
What really gets me wild with anger, is that many people rant about the loss of soldiers lives being for a worthless cause.
Can they not see how insulting it is to those deceased brave lads and their families who have to listen as others devalue a noble intention ?.
Protection of one’s homeland..(home anywhere.).. is the most important thing in any societies’ life.
The argument as to whether this protection is necessary is a separate issue, dont fudge and confuse emotion with argument
..These lads are the bravest youths around and have died in belief that our Country will survive as one of the greatest Countries there is without the intervention and threat of terrorism.
Dont be so quick to hand pick historical facts.. look at the second world war for evidence of charismatic misuse.