An extraordinary gathering of virgins
The Pope’s remarks outlawing condoms yet again, this time in a sermon delivered in Yaounde, Cameroon, call to mind an eerie experience we had on this programme next to a swimming pool in Kampala back in 2005.
We had gone to Uganda to report ahead of the Gleneagles G8 summit, which was dedicated to Africa.
What we found beside the pool was an extraordinary gathering of virgins, male and female. Now, I was unable to prove they were virgins, but they all declared they were.
A swimming pool, surrounded by virgins
They spoke lyrically of the joys of abstinence and swore they would never have sex until they were married.
Of course, their radical Christian evangelical church had been in receipt of significant American funding – the Bush administration believing strongly in abstinence as a means of combating Aids-HIV.
But I’m afraid the cynics amongst us suspected that not everything that glittered was as golden as they pretended.
Hard at work on assignment in Kampala
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One of the worst religious crimes committed inter alia against the poor of Africa and South America has been the catholic condom ban and consequent AIDS increase.
The Catholic church is a top-down autocracy. Indeed it prides itself on this fact. The pope’s word is officially final and absolute. He is the arbiter of everything in the Catholic church and thus responsible personally for its policies – all of them.
To be a good Catholic, you have to believe in the absolute and complete authority of the church and in particular the pope personally. This has been laid down in published church laws that are a matter of public record. This is in contrast (say) to the CofE.
The direct consequence of the pope’s and the church’s policy banning physical barrier contraception for its adherents in the 2nd and 3rd worlds is (it is reliably estimated) some 2 million extra deaths through AIDS during the last pope’s rule.
So the last pope was personally responsible for and caused some 2 million extra AIDS deaths.
It is with despair and disbeleif that I read of the pope’s, wicked words on condoms and Aids during his recent visit to Africa. We can only conclude that the leader of the world’s Catholics is either stupid or evil.
Michael Portillo’s excellent programme on Christianity a few weeks pointed out the negative effect that the conversion of the emperor Constantine had on the Christian religion. There is I believe much truth in that – after all Christ himself was a man good. So where and how did the Christian religion lose its way?
Thank God for the sanity and wisdom of Rowan Williams. What, I wonder, is the Catholic church so afraid of?
Even if your argument about Catholic moral teaching were true… don’t you think that in the vast majority of those cases (i.e. the 2 million deaths that you blame John Paul II for) there would have had to been some kind of personal responsibility?
I don’t remember the previous Pope ever teaching that people had to sleep with those infected with HIV, or with prostitutes, or in bath-houses, or to inject heroin, etc. In fact he taught the exact opposite! A lifestyle choice is basically that – a choice… good choices have good effects, and bad ones have bad consequences.
It reminds me of a friend of mine who knew an alcoholic who blamed his drinking on his religious upbringing – as my friend remarked, “It’s funny that, as I never saw a priest buy him a drink!” We tend to play the blame game, as if we’re so immature that we cannot accept any personal responsibility.
No Pope will stop the spread of HIV/Aids… but a change in people’s behaviour might. The gay community had to look again at the problem of hedonistic behaviour in the “scene” in the 80s, and – lest we be smug in the West – 20 years later there are great fears that the mistakes of the past are about to be revisited (especially in the saunas, and some parts of the gay scene here in London). Let’s hope not.
Immediately after the news of the Pope’s comments about condoms, Jon Snow conducted an interview with two women, one a doctor representing Christian Aid, the other representing Aid to the Church in Need.
The doctor put forward balanced arguments in a dignified way while the person “representing” the Catholic Church was rude and displayed fanatical views. Her arguments were irrational. Of course, one can see that abstinence is the ultimate safe way of combatting the transmission of sexual diseases but we have to recognise what is actually happening in reality and help people in any way we can.
I am a Catholic and wish to disassociate myself from her appalling behaviour. I feel confident that the many Catholic friends I know would feel the same.
Oh Mr Snow, what a fantastic interview with Mrs Rabid About Condoms! Please make it available here before YouTube, and well done for handling the situation with humour.
I am disappointed with the Pope’s comments in Africa. Sending this message will increase the spread of HIV. To make matters worse the lady supporting the Pope’s comments on tonight’s Channel 4 News was aggressive and did not have her facts correct. Is this how she wants the world to see Christians when the facts are right in front of her?!
As a Christian she has done us some damage. I think the church should modernise itself and realise sex is a common and accepted practice the world over for many various reasons and the use of condoms protects everyone.
How would the church tackle a person born with HIV or the millions of people who have never found love?
We have to start working together to tackle global issues and accept ideas from other areas. There is a place for Christianity in the world but as sinners repenting will not cure this virus.
Ian Prince
the email address of the ACN is
acn@acnuk.org
I’ve written to the Chief Exectutive about the interview and to ask if it achieved the outcomes they had hoped for.
http://www.acn.org.uk/shop/frameset.asp
Quite amazing interview. The belligerent ACN representative can congratulate herself on representing the very worst view of the Catholic church.
Best 10 minutes of TV for quite some time!
Your interview on this subject was actually legendary. Just when I was getting so angry with that horrible woman I could have screamed you just looked at the camera in a special Jon way and it made me laugh and my heart melt. All in all, bloody brilliant!
Joanna Bogle’s failure to acknowledge the plain and obvious evidence of the capacity of condoms to prevent the transmission of HIV/AIDS, her offensive lack of courtesy and her inability to understand the most basic rules of discourse in Jon Snow’s interview with her left me feeling quite nauseous. Rarely have I seen such an appalling and embarrassing display of ignorance, fanaticism and stupidity.
Bogle signally failed to answer the question which Snow put to her, that the only intelligent thing to do in the case of a married couple, one of whom has AIDS and the other does not, is to use a condom.
Anyone who has any knowledge of AIDS will know, as Dr Rachel Baggley pointed out, that condoms are highly effective in their prevention of the transmission of HIV. Anyone who has experienced or even read about the searing pain of seeing babies dying of AIDS in their parents’ arms will know that such tragic scenarios could be avoided by the use of condoms.
Bogle, in the midst of her irrational ranting, dismissed a condom as “a piece of rubber” which could not protect you; quite the opposite is true, and is recognised by any sane, rational person, including many devout and thoughtful Christians.
The Pope’s insistence on abstinence may prevent some people from getting AIDS; but his prohibition of condoms will consign many more, probably millions, to death. Abstinence is an option, but how realistic is it to expect tens of millions of people to abstain from sexual activity for life once they have HIV/AIDS?
To claim, as Bogle did with a belief-defying and warped logic, that 22 million people have AIDS because of the condom campaign, flies in the face of reason and is a breathtaking insult to the intelligence of many thousands of viewers who must have watched this interview with increasing horror.
Such claims and views, born out of an entrenched ideology which bears no relation to reality, and expressed with an unseemly vehemence and a shocking lack of dignity, are deeply shameful and bring the Catholic Church and Christianity into disrepute.
Saw the interview Jon. I’d tuned in specially as we’d been Twittering about the dinosaur. Saw plenty of fire-breathing instead. That was an amazing situation that trumped anything Paxo has ever stirred-up. I’m sure we’ll see it on every “It shouldn’t happen to a newsreader” programme around the world now. Which will of course help spread the message, in a curious sort of way…
Anyway. Well done. You kept the lid on it – just – but letting it run also showed the audience what a contentious issue it really is. At the time I was screaming “Calm down dear” at my TV screen and hoping you’d cut to Winners trailer for the weather forecast, but on further reflection your letting the situation run like that was very professional.
Actually I felt rather sorry for the ACN woman. What she actually said, when I though about it later, did have some merit to it. If you want to avoid spreading AIDS don’t do naughty adult things with each other. It was a strongly held view and nobody was listening to her. I’ve been in a similar situation before. I know what it feels like.
The problem of course, is that such a course of action is completely impractical in the modern world. With human nature the way it is. It’ll never happen. It’s an impossible dream…
The solution therefore is to preach both messages. If you don’t want to catch Aids don’t have S-E-X, but if you do use a condom.
Just goes to show though. You can’t mix religion and politics.
There’s some more on this at Unholy Row on my personal blog.
For those who missed it – here is the channel 4 News page of the story
So go directly here and watch the Channel 4 news report video – press the “Watch the report” link;
OR look in particular at the video of the Discussion – hilarious;
AND there’s the pope’s remarks which sparked the story.
Spot on Jon,
Loved it, I bet she felt she did well and got her (and the RC church’s) point across perfectly!
Keep it up!
I thought you did excellently last night on C4 – gave the “Condoms cause HIV” crazy just enough rope to hang herself with.
It is obvious that condoms do prevent the spread of HIV. That has been proved in the gay community. In some US cities almost 50% of black gay men are HIV+ and that is because the condom message hasn’t got through to that community for various reasons. .
Obviously not having sex is the way to avoid any risk, just as never leaving the house is the best way to avoid being run over by a bus. Abstinence just isn’t an option for many people or even a choice for women in some societies.
Indeed there is even a good argument for continuing to use condoms in ‘monogamous’ relationships, as many are anything but.
It is wicked and immoral to send out an anti-condom message. How many more millions of Africans have to become HIV+ with no prospect of any treatment?
Holocaust deniers get prosecuted in some countries. Maybe condom deniers should be too?
The Catholic church has been directly responsible for the deaths of millions of people with its ban on the use of condoms.
The Pope and the child-abusing Catholic priests are a disgrace to the Christian world and give ammunition to those who would destroy it.
Well done Jon for attempting to diffuse the anger of that ridiculous woman – laughter can be a great weapon when dealing with bigots like her!
Magnificent stuff from Jon last night in handling the most appalling belligerency and shocking bullying from the Aid To the Church in Need representative. Whoever told her on her media course to adopt an aggressive posture in interview has done her cause a terrible service in 10 minutes of gripping TV.
As a committed Roman Catholic who takes my religion extremely seriously, I was horrified by the kind of fanatical bigotry this kind of person represented. I hope Jon and Samira had a good drink and a laugh afterwards!!
“Anyone who has experienced or even read about the searing pain of seeing babies dying of AIDS in their parents’ arms will know that such tragic scenarios could be avoided by the use of condoms.”
The rubber things ain’t magic, conception happens even where condoms are used, therefore infection will too. Duh.
If someone is committing adultery or using a prostitute, do you really think he or she is going to worry about what “the Pope” says about condoms?
Now instead of getting all het up what the Church says about condoms, how about moving abroad somewhere where teenage virgins are married off to HIV-infected old men and considering how to convince folk this should not be done?
On the subject of condoms, conception and HIV, and without wanting to go into graphic detail on Jon’s blog, as far as I remember it only takes one sperm to cause a pregnancy, whereas HIV infection requires much more ‘material’. That is why condoms are so effective at preventing HIV.
Of course they can be used incorrectly, and that is why education is needed – and, by the way, another reason why we need to tackle binge drinking in this country, as there are often links between use of alcohol and HIV infections here.
Who said she was “representing” the Catholic Church?
Incredible that those who lack the self control to abstain, possess the moral fibre to heed the Pope’s words!!!