The cable to the White House from the US ambassador to Afghanistan, Karl Eikenberry, for “no more troops” is a pretty shocking shot across the military’s bows.
Following our own micro consultation with the UK public last night, one’s sense of confusion and mystification over the Afghan war only deepens.
Here in the UK the acid question must surely be whether the damage done to communal relations in Britain from deploying UK troops to engage in action which inevitably sheds Muslim blood, outweighs the risk of blood being shed here by Muslim extremists.
To be doing this to facilitate a regime the US ambassador deems corrupt seems pretty foolhardy. The general commanding the US war effort, General McChrystal, is said to be fuming over Mr Eikenberry’s thoughts. He very publicly wants another 40,000 troops right now.
Who would be Barack Obama in such an hour? I’m interviewing the Nato Secretary General this morning, Mr Rasmussen. And what is Nato in all this? A bit part player in a British-backed US adventure? A smokescreen of “international” respectability? A cypher? Who knows? We’ll ask!
This is indeed the Afghan hour of truth in a conflict that has outstripped Vietnam in length – and the second world war, for that matter.
Compared with this, the illegal war in Iraq was a doddle. It was either right or wrong, and most people knew which side they were on.
Afghanistan – what a shambles. Send for Tony Blair and George Bush! Perhaps they know what to do next. After all, they thought it up in the first place in response to a terrorist attack starring a group of Saudis, for the most part trained on the American and German mainland.
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You know Jon, whatever anyone may say the two people responsible for making terrorism and relations with muslims worse are George Bush and Tony Blair. This war in Afghanistan will not bring Democracy with the corrupt officials in power. Gordon Brown has failed to take the right decisions on this and will be ridiculed as a result as Tony Blair was on Iraq. The sooner we have an exit strategy the better.
If you, me and Traver sit in a room for a couple of days we could come up with a solution.
The exit strategy seems to involve handing security over to a bunch if ill-disciplined, unreliable, drugged-up Afghans. It is completely unworkable.
So the best exit strategy is simply to withdraw and let the Afghans sort out their own mess, relying on Khazi and Abdullah to get their act together in the “Government of Unity”. If the Western armies are out of AFghanistan, they stand a better chance.
All we then have to do is make sure our borders are secure, which means stopping the French from shipping asylum seekers through the Channel Tunnel (amongst other things) and start shipping a few people back home to their country of origin.
We need to get really tough on the asylum seekers, foreign students and health tourists that are using lax border controls to undermine our society.
We also need to get the “do-gooders” that allow them the space to do so out of office and out of their positions of power and influence: those people have actually done more harm to the UK than the terrorists themselves…
Dear Jon,
The Defense minister keeps reapting the rethoric of Mr Blair- that’s if we get out of Afghanistan we have the terror in our streets. That’s nonesense. The terrorism migrates. If they can’t be in Afghanistan they move. Are we going to start war in Pakistan, Africa and Asia? Moreove, most terrorist trainings are done in the Western countries.
The UK should get out of this unjust war ASAP. Over the past 8 years, this war has achieved nothing. The corruption is rampant, the production of opium has grown by 90%, and the lives of ordiary Afghans are worse than it used to be. It’s a shame that the innocent people should die to protect a corrupt regim. It makes a mokcery of democracy.
Kind regards, Frew
Choose how hard you tried to sway last nights audience Jon you came unstuck.
This war is not only unpopular but a total waste of time and more importantly our young lives.
We are allowing people into this country who could easily be Taliban or worse and our troops are sent on a fools errand by this government.
If like they say we are in danger of attack why have they allowed so many potential terrorists into our country where they get housed and fed at our expense.
After my comments yesterday, I watched the mini-consultation from Coventry last night, and as you said about the public’s thoughts – “mushy” – confirming to me that the fickle public, mood should not be the key driver on such as important issue as war – this is not phone- in to vote, like X- Factor or Strictly. Democratic discussion is fine, but it should be informed. Very few of the audience seemed to have any idea of the region’s history prior to 2001. Comments like “I just FEEL we ought to bring them home” add no value at all, and bereaved familes, whilst attracting our sympathy, are most unlikely to have access to ALL the facts on the ground, rendering their opinions as just that – opinions. Based on last night’s audience, we’d get absolutely nowhere at all – that’s why we have Government elected for a term long enough to take such strategic decisions, with the input of the Generals, with responsibility for on the ground implementation.
I am just Joe Public but this is all getting out of hand. The UN has been very ‘quiet’ to date and it needs to wake up. If this is an international problem then the UN must take the lead. NATO troops should be used to resolve. Key steps 1) redefine the problem / potential problems 2) define the solution alternatives based on key objective criteria 3) evaluate the alternatives, look at the potential problems and choose the best solution 4) define the solution strategy 5) implement by UN. All 5 steps under the UN. A simple process. Just do it and do it quickly.
As I said previously, it seems the only clear reason for being in Afghanistan is to to placate western feminists over eastern women being ruthlessly surpressed by a vicious Taliban regime.
The hunt for Bin Laden, the utlima thule of terrorism, has switched to Pakistan, another nation in shambles and far more dangerous than Afghanistan.
Nato’s sole mission should be to help the Afghans defend themselves, if they so choose. Yet, this is complicated by the fact there’s no one Afghan people, but numerous tribes.
The Taliban rule only affirmed the Saddam Hussein way of leading such a diverse nation…by the use of absolute power and terror.
America, et all, has to realize this is the way some nations and people are and accept that the world as a whole doesn’t fit into a PC definition and adhere to western logic and sensibilities.
“[Blair&Bush] thought it up in the first place in response to a terrorist attack starring a group of Saudis, for the most part trained on the American and German mainland.”
I’m not so sure about that. It’s not unlikely that an invasion plan for Afghanistan existed prior to 9/11.
One thing I noted during the debate was that one of the government’s (ever changing) aims was to reduce the level of poppy production in Afghanistan. It should be noted that prior to 9/11, Afghanistan was responsible for a small % of the world’s heroin production, as the Taliban had outlawed it in 2000. In fact, Helmand Province, which previously accounted for over half of the poppy production in Afghanistan recorded 0 poppy cultivation in 2001. Compare that figure to 2007, when Afghanistan was responsible for 93% of the world’s heroin supply.
It is undeniable that one of the real, measurable outcomes of the war is the restoration of Afghanistan as the world leader in opium production (much of which finds its way into the US). This in turn raises the disturbing question of whether this was actually an intended outcome of the war. A question which goes unasked by any mainstream media outlet.
I’d like to see the stats for this, somehow it does not ring true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan
Sources all listed at the bottom of article.
Bonus non-Wikipedia source…
The statistics are broken down in the UN World Drug Report 2007 – http://www.unodc.org/pdf/research/wdr07/WDR_2007_3.1.1_afghanistan.pdf
I’m tiptoeing around coming across as callous,but this topic,like most difficult topics,would be easier to follow and discuss,without the emotional relative element.If we were discussing the pros/cons of Xmas,we would’nt entertain the turkey’s view – HARD FACTS please only.There is no right answer,but hard facts increase the chances of improving understanding and who knows,maybe the outcome ?
There is only one answer.Get out as soon as possible.The longer we are there , the more we exacerbate the problem of warring factions.
If we get out and the Taliban take over , that is an Afghan problem.Eventually as we are seeing in Iran people begin to see the folly of accepting extremism.If we pull out , as Ray says we should stringently protect our own borders .Sort out the immigration mess and stop interfering militarily abroad
Where do people get their opinions from?
1) The media.
Which people are selected to give first hand opinions.?
2)The media.
How can we the general public know what goes on in the annals of intelligence , the real politics that we don’t see.?
How can we judge when we truly do not know all the facts? How can look into the the future to know what is best?
We can only look at how we feel, but that may mean our own martyrdom.
We can only look on and see widespread cruelty world wide
Actually, some of us read books.
Opinions are formed through history and ones life.The media merely fuel the debate.
I was on Channel 4 debate last night, I wish the debate on Afghanistan last night included todays news abut bonues for MOD. I think it is travisty of justice that British soldiers who put their lives at rick lack state of the art equipment because of money. Yet we seem to pay bonuses for the MOD, what’s more sickening is we bailed out Bankers who fleaced our econmy with Billions and yet we wish our soldier to fight with excuses rather then real equipment. The loss of every British life as well as Afghan is on the hands of Tony Blair. It is only under Tony Blair the country has been divided because the public were lied too. We went to Falklands, First Gulf War the country was united because it wasn’t lied too. We need to look after British Interest alone and NOT be puppets for the US. Sadly even 7/7 bombs in London would NOT have happened if it was for Tony Blair wanting to involve us in the US foreign policy of Anti Arab and Pro Israel. It i time British toops were taken out of the game that is only between the US and Osama Bin Laden. They are both repulsive and neither is better then the other. We need to sort out Palastine and Israel and much of the conflict will settle down.
Afghanistan I fear we have biten off more then we can chew, and sadly it was even ours to bite. I feel it is important to outlines a a few facts. History of terror did NOT begin at 9/11 although Afghanistan was a reaction to 9/11. We forget nearly 100,000 unarmed Arabs were slaughtered on the road back to Bhasra, Where the US pilots laughedand called it a turkey shoot, we seemed to have wiped that out of our memory as it;s not palletable. Untill the US starts to respect all human life then the terror situion will never stop from fringes of all faiths. In the Western media we have a few powerful Mischief makers who want to keep the focus of conflict betrween Christians and Muslim and sadly there are a few Powerful Jewish Lobbist who use USA via proxy to destroy Arabs, as we accuse Iran of doing the same with Hisbulah. We need to bring our troops home and let US carry on it’s own war on Islam because of Israel and powerful Jewish lobbys. who;s only Iterest is Israel. and UK must NOT have any part in this game. The British people had friends and respect the wolrd over and only one person destroyed that and Tony Balir didnt care about UK just his own ego.
If it is all over Israel.Britain was an important party in the setting up of an Israeli/Jewish state.It is time the arab world accepted that Israel is a sovereign state and has a right to live in peaceful coexistance with the arab/palestinian states.Whilst ever they seek to destroy Israel there will be tension and even war in the area
While all my instincts tell me we should get out – the money would be better spent helping the people of Haiti who are apparently still homeless a year aftert he hurricanes – there is one caveat.
We have created quite a mess in Afghanistan and perhaps we have some obligation to help sort that out.
But in future, no invasion unless we are invaded
Yes Alan I have lots of degrees too,and read and have read, but remember unless there is a compilation there is only one author.
Where does all the edited work come from ? I know a lot of editors too and the surity of things is not so cut and dry.
The cut and thrust of power is simply that….. power.
Dear Mr Snow,
How can the public have any influence on the outcome of the Nato invasion of Afghanistan. We were never told why our forceswere therre anyway – other than a few vague lies about Al Qaeda having some foot-hold there. We also live in a non-democracy – any protest I attempt to make will be met with a good kicking from PADDINGTON PLOD – minus ID numbers
what can we possibly do?,
Looks like its all getting out of hand as I said.
Government unable to manage home affairs (politicians affairs, the bankers, immigration, health, education, tax, unemployment, infrastructure, Utility company excess profits) foreign affairs (Iraq and Afghanistan etc.)
If its a non-democracy then we only have direct action.
People need to make a stand.
I predict more direct action and riots in the not too distant future.
To many poeple with to many issues, and to many sides to take. Its information overload leading the country to a mental and emotional breakdown, nobody is reasonable, Chaos!
Someone take control of the situation and make a start by closing down some of the news papers, like the Sun.
Anyone who decides to write such filth in these turbulent times should be morally banished from such a powerful position.
I would like to see the government use its power to take back some control over this situaiton. Muster up some of the greatest minds in the country, assembled purely to discuss afghanistan. A cross section of professionals selected for their expertise and for the discussion to be broadcast to the Nation. The decisions made under a trusted group with full tranparancy applied. Prime Minister to sanction this and follow the outcomes acheived, like a true leader. The parents who are losing their children deserve to know it was justified, and the Afghan people deserve to be treated fairly.
The Media should not Rule the Politicians nor whip up Public hatred. The public do need lead in these uncertain times, particulary grieving parents.
i see you are in favour of censorship Evie. Who is to decide what is right and what is wrong? The government?Those who lied and refused us a referendum on Europe, because we wouldnt decide they were right..Why not go the whole hog and ban political parties.Have a dictatorship of the learned few.
I agree Evie, what the world desperately needs is gentleness, love and understanding. Feminity in all it’s original concepts of grace,sensitivity and nurture should be infused throughout .
As a mother of both a son and a daughter , I would much rather put myself through trials and tribulations , than cause my children any harm. I fully empathise with the suffering and anguish of parents who have children fighting for ,paradoxically ,PEACE.
Try telling that to the Taliban
I know.
This is the whole point of trying to gather accurate information.
We only have to look at ‘you tube’ to see horrific images… and sometimes then we are told that they are fake…..
I am not in a position to travel myself to Afghanistan and talk to every section of the unsociable society, even if that were politically possible. The reliance on reporters to give unbiased information and, yes suffer themselves, to bring us news is one of the most important social services ther is BUT we can’t cope with every injustice all at once. Informed discussions are required ,where immediate( and by that I mean imminent war) priorites can be met.
Maybe Alan Clarke lives in a home that is not carpet bombed by air and May I remind him we are over there killing them in thier land. If you use the excuse of 9/11 as terror . My friend 9/11 was wrong and repulsive and no less repulsive was the massacare before 9/11 by the US pilots killing 100,000 Arabs on the road back to Bhasra The US pilots laughed and called it a turkey shoot. I guess those Arabs didn’t have mothers fathers childrens like the people in 9/11 we remember 9/11 everyday but no memory for Arabs killed by the West. My friend all forms of violence is very wrong. it is a bullies way of winning an arguement. I suggest we take time out and show respect of all those killed in all countries. we sit in our armchairs and watch death on TV of our British soldiers. It is time for All politicias to have their children enlisted in the army and then we shall see how wars are allowed the world over. I auggest it is also tie we expose thge real mischief makers between the Muslims world and The Christians and there is a 3rd party that must be exposed.our politicians should put UK firstit UK Government is not run from number 10 but it runs from the White House Blair sold us out
Gitmo KSM should be tried in a court and if proven guilty should then face the punishment. I as British muslim have no issues with holding the guilty to account but then we also focus on others too. Like Blair and Bush and Rumsfeld. We were lied too and yet there is no accountability for any Westerner who is guilty. I feel we can all have peace if we stopped practising double standards. ustise only seems to be dished out to muslims while we make excuses for our friends and look the other way. I can’t see why US will NOT sign up to the Intenational Criminal Court. US has a powerful Veto in UN and used the UN to invade Iraq and When he same UN has resolutions for it’s friend Israel, it uses the Veto or choses to look the other way. secondly How can we allow Rupert Murdoch who is NOT even a UK citien to interfere with the democrocy in the UK. I notice much of the coverage on Sky Newsm and Sun which he owns has a lot of negative anti Arabs and Anti Muslims news high on the profile. Would this have any reflection that he is Jewish and he wishes to indoctronate the British public into being anti Muslims. or will this be hidden again under the old chestnut of being anti semitic?
the old chestnut . we muslims are innocent. it is all to do with the jews and their supporters . People are dying in iraq etc etc . I never heard a muslim complain openly of Sadam yet he persecuted them . We bought freedom to Iraq even if i believe we should have left well alone
i dont think the British public need to be educated by a newspaper to be indoctrinated against Muslims.Muslims are free in this country to follow their religion alongside the Christian religion , and free to voice their opinions in a free society.The same freedoms do not apply in Muslim countries.If and when it did those countries would be accepted in a free world.If arab countries can not accept Israel , why should they accept Pakistan.set up by similar procedures.
I was also on the show and sat near to a father who lost his son twelve weeks ago.The reason being for the emotion in my voice when i spoke and also seeing hours previously the coffins arriving at RAF Lynam.How many us of did not shed a tear at seeing the procession of coffins not many i am sure.A half hour show did not cover all the angles and we do recognise that not not everything is right with the present Afghan government but it is starting point to build on.If we move out the taliban move in which will destabilise the region and the west and with a mandate to change our lives.I ask myself what future for Nato if the countries of the world do not unite to bring Afghanistan to peace.At present the commitment seems open ended and the public cannot see closure but i would find it hard to come to terms with leaving the Afghans to the mercy of the taliban with a life of public executions and the chopping off of hands as much as i still cannot believe my generation stood back and witnessed the genocide so close to home in Bosnia and did too little too late.Please not again.
I recently read that there is 100 thousand mercenaries/security-Company-Guards in Afghanistan.Where are they, is a pipeline secretly being built?.I’m only curious.The independent published a route for this and some interesting extant pipework in the north between Iraq and china!!…
Japan has announced a 5 Billion dollar investment in AID for Afghanistan over the next five years.
Those involved in Afghanistan must now understand that the military solution is hopeless.
Humanitarian assistance and development aid is the only solution, bringing honour and respect to the countless dead and wounded.
Ambassador Eikenberry has perhaps started down the right road:Obama would be foolish not to heed his words.
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