What do we want? Something!
This probably won’t come as a surprise but I’m not a big fan of camping. With the exception of a few nights in my friend’s garden when we were six, and a night in the Lake District in the Cubs, my experience of camping has been of there being no choice.
Filming the aftermath of an Indian earthquake, the Bosnian war, Orangemen camped at Drumcree, a South African slum – that sort of thing. Unpleasant (if fascinating) experiences, on the whole.
I’d rather be in a hotel. So I am full of admiration for people who camp on cold streets to protest.
Whether or not you agree with them the Greenham Common women, the anti-roads camps, Brian Haw and the rest had an admirable determination. I just wish I knew what this latest lot wanted, then we could work out whether or not we agree with them occupying things.
Anger, on the other hand, is something I thoroughly understand. More people should get more angry about things more often. I always tell students who ask what is the most defining thing about being a journalist that they should feel angry about something, preferably something different every day.
So I understand that people camping on the steps of St Paul’s Cathedral are angry. But what about? Their taxes? Their wages? The riches of others? If I were them I’d be angry about not being allowed to camp on Paternoster Square outside the Stock Exchange. And not just because there are more coffee shops.
This is a coming together of lots of demands and everyone has their own, she explained, the key is they all reject the current system. That’s fine, as far as it goes. But it leaves many people a bit stumped as to what to do about it. And do they really reject the system or are they just cross they don’t have a bigger piece of it for themselves?
She also explained that the act of occupation is a demand in itself. I think I know what she means – it’s a symbolic demand I guess – but it’s not exactly world peace is it? And unless they spell out a philosophy that says there is no such thing as a land right and private property I am still just guessing. Or as I put it on the programme: it all seems a bit vague.
Rejecting the status quo is of course an important part of any change. So perhaps the Occupy movement will spend more time rejecting what we have, and gathering more people around that rejectionism, before it can come together around some objectives. It is certainly an interesting movement, and taps into a wider sense of frustration among all of us who are not the rulers of the world. Its relatively small size does not seem to me a reason to write it off just yet.
But in order to organise itself it may find it has to emulate some of the very political structures and rules that it seems to despise. Democracy and referenda require discipline, rules and compliance. This is clearly the protesters’ biggest challenge – otherwise they will simply be leaving the political response to the political class. And don’t hold your breath waiting for them (the political class ) to come up with anything very radical very quickly.
Follow Krishnan Guru-Murthy on Twitter: @krishgm
There are 40 comments on this post
Krishnan… Come on… It’s not rocket science ppl want equality! You say a bigger slice of the cake but I find that very condescending and a bit immature. I don’t think I’m reading between the lines I think it’s bleeding obvious! There are countries in this small world that are much more equal than ours. Surely it’s not too much to ask to be like them. Is it?
It’s amazing how active twitter is with people who support the general idea but are blatantly not there. There are people on twitter who seem to support every form of direct action, except logging off twitter.
There is no one problem and no one answer. At St Paul’s there are people who are unemployed, underemployed, can’t pay their rent and can’t pay their posh school fees. There are people who won’t get a pension or can’t go to university. There are people there who are so thoroughly sick and tired of everyone being treated as an economic unit, whether it’s their grandparent being abused in hospital or themselves being expected to do 2 jobs for the price of one.
The process of being there, even for an hour or so, reminds people that it is possible to do something different without the world coming to an end. It is possible to sit on the step of a church where the queen goes. The way the police act is always very energizing for people who’ve only seen them in action against other people: it’s another matter when they act against you. And then the priests, those bastions of the establishment, will tell the police to get a grip – extraordinary! You can spend time talking with people you would never normally meet and *they don’t smell*! Imagine!
This isn’t a dry committee meeting of the usual suspects, this is a gathering of people who come and go, talk with each other, push their personal limitations a bit, talk and are listened to. That’s a novelty in itself.
‘Discipline, rules and compliance’ are absolutely required in democracy and referenda, but we’ve all been a bit too compliant in allowing the political class to tell us what to do in return for a washing machine and a huge telly on tick to watch x factor on. Just watching the protests on that telly gives people the knowledge that something different is possible. People are waking up and talking with each other. I’d say that’s the most dangerous thing, in and of itself without any demands at all, that a politician can ever face.
The demands will come later, all will be ignored, we’ll all get back to living as economic units but some minds will have briefly opened. From the politicians point of view something horrendous that will make us put our individual concerns to one side to Pull Together is their best bet, and isn’t the world in excellent shape for a war? That’s always great for the economy, reduces unemployment to nil and kills off a lot of poorly educated angry young men. That’s less likely to happen if people from wildly different backgrounds meet each other and realise we’re all just human. That’s the point. That’s the answer. You can’t codify it, but that need will always assert itself.
Just because you did not understand her answers does not mean that there was not an answer. At the moment our society and governance operates to help the few elite rich become even wealthier – i.e. greater inequality. However, rather than see and understand the problem many are viewing it too simplistically with questions like “what do you want done ?” to which there are many different answers. Your interview was focused on the “what to you [the protestors] want done?” whereas the question should have been “what are the issues that people are protesting about?” and they are very different. some will see the issues as excessive greed (maybe stop the bonus madness that has gripped the elite few in society), others see it as government governance (the taking from the poor and giving to the rich). Many different solutions to a general underlying problem.
And the current protests will fade and disappear but there is a lot of dissatisfaction in society generally with the way things are going. Governments (who are generally run by the wealthy) fail to recognise this as they are isolated and are generally on the receiving end of the transfer poor to rich. But the issue will return and return and in the long term things will change. Some countries will change faster (and will benefit from a very happy motivated population before others will follow. And as always a few countries will be dragged kicking and screaming – as we are seeing at the moment with the tail end of the move from dictatorships to democracies).
They have issued an initial statement/manifesto, stating quite clearly what the initial aims are. You can see it on the occupylsx website. They have managed this within 48 hours.
Disengenuous in the extreme, why is nobody talking about fractional reserve banking on channel four news. There is an answer, but you are not allowed to think it. So much for your independence.
BTW. Glad to see they might finally be doing something about lobbying.
Krishnan are you being a tad disingenuous on purpose? Do you truly believe the significance of mass demonstrations is diminished because of a myriad of lay voices?
Here in the West occupying protests have successfully disrupted the usual stage managed economic debates very successfully. As your guest indicated, the very fact of being invited to contribute on C4 proved this if nothing else….
Bing angry about specific issues is all well and good. But the current crisis suggests that the managers of our economy ignore structural damage to society in favour of monetary measures which arguably support their success not ‘ours’…
Our leaders evidently have faith in their ability to successfully police the adverse consequences of their political choices; maybe they can. Conversely, many believe it’s time to step up to the plate while peaceful protest still holds sway and try for something better….
Before implementing a better system; before agreeing a better system; before understanding what needs to be changed; before there is a consensus that there is, indeed, a problem; first you need to make people – and Governments and bankers – aware of that problem. That is what the protesters are doing.
It is utterly infantile to ask them “Well, what’s *your* answer?” The answer is a long way off yet. Unfortunately.
The answer is to outlaw fractional reserve banking, the root cause of the problem. its only a long way off because ‘they’ want it to be.
Perhaps a better question is “What is it that they do not want”. Answer: “what we have now”.
Our, and many other Democracies are not real. Just a convenient illusion, a nod to the general idea that we are a Democracy. The pool of “representatives at Cabinet level” is drawn from such a narrow group as to make a Democracy for the people impossible. Self interest, cronyism, all of Capitalism in its worst form has now taken over on a global scale and that is what is not wanted. It affect the old the young and the inbetweens therefore they all see the problem differently but the cause is the same
I was once involved in a “management game” which involved trying to guide a blindfold person to do a simple task only using the word “no”. After 15 minutes we gave up. When we tried it using “yes” as well, the task was accomplished in less than 2 minutes. The point of this is if you can only articulate what byou don’t want, you won’t get what you want. Indeed, the big risk (trying to learn from history) is that unarticulated anger against the “system” led to fascism & nazism (& communism too I suppose) & I doubt any of those who suffered the results of these ideologies regarded the outcome as what they wanted. So though opposing the self, uncaring greed of the present system is fine – & I applaud it – I think it’s worth people also thinking through what they want to replace it with. Otherwise, we may stumble blindly into something worse. Humans have a remarkable talent for destruction (the kicking down sand castles syndrome), but we are less good at building. What is most needed now is some profound thinking about what would improve our present system and how we can get there in practical terms that might actually gain a reasonable amount of public support. Otherwise these protests are ****ing into the wind.
Phillip 5.10pm
I really do agree with you. “No” without an alternative plan is eventually doomed. My fear is that it may well be too late. Money is so powerful at present,that it would probably “buy” itself out of any attempt at change. The “off with their heads” idea didn’t do much good either. Perhaps the whole population should take part in your “management game”. (Love the idea, wished I had had that one).
A variant thereof, for every critisism, make any positive suggestion. This has worked in small groups as often people at the sharp end have good ideas. Could work and be done through Census Office. Limit to however many things you critisise there must be positive suggestion (not necessarily on that particular subject). Should produce some interesting ideas and from them perhaps emerge an alternative system. I’m dreaming. As if any government would do such a thing or allow it to be done.
Who said there is no alternative or that it was difficult to find? Who said we don’t know what the problem is?
The real problem is that those in charge of the present system can’t admit failure and change it, because they will then be blamed and it might cost them money. Hence the lobbying.
The present Government won’t do anyting about it because it doesn’t affect them. It’s just a short term problem in their eyes.
It’ll go away if they bury their heads in the sand and ignore it.
The irony is that now all such ‘protests’ against the globalised capitalist system are co-ordinated using globalised capitalist IT systems, delivered using globalised capitalist transport systems and even fuelled using globalised capitalist burger and coffee supply systems – did you see the queue of ‘protestors’ to use the globalised capitalist toilet at Starbucks ?
There is a travelling circus of protestors, dating back to Aldermaston/CND, through the Vietnam War, Greenham Common, Poll Tax Riots, Stop The Cuts and many other civil misbehaviours – it’s the same bunch, just a different flag each time. It is accepted and tolerated by the establishment because they know it won’t change a thing. Let them have their ’15 minutes of action’, then we can all get back to the real world.
It is true that there is lots wrong in the world, including Britain, there is lots wrong with our finance system and our so-called democracy, there is lots wrong with systems which lead to such disparity of reward compared to effort – but none of this will be changed by the ‘usual suspects’ having a demo, camping out for a while or making their usual noises. But just humour them and it’ll be alright.
Why shouldn’t protesters use technology or Starbucks or any other modern day convenience? I don’t think they are protesting against progress or innovation but against the hijacking of these things – along with most other markets and a good deal of governments – by the greedy ‘Gordon Gecko’s’ of the world.
You may sneer at them but at least they are making their objections, to issues you acknowledge exist, publicly seen and heard. This movement will grow.
And as I recall, the poll tax protests did result in change – even Maggie Thatcher acknowledged people power once it reached a critical point.
sue_m
17 October 2011
Good Gracious, another person I agree with. How on earth is it an irony. Protesters through the ages use what is available in their time.[what else are they to use?]
His tone is also condescending.How can the be “the usual suspects” Each generation produces it own and rightly so,they each have different objectives. You can see where he is coming from with the “civil misbehavior” which rather implies that it is wrong/illegal to have a different view. But I love the idea of a globalised toilet.
Democracy and discipline , now that is an interesting correlation of thought. The suggestion actually hints at an alternative to democracy which may require less discipline and that stance doesn’t seem to hit the nail on the head. Perhaps if you said self discipline I would have been more attracted to your position Self discipline is required in team work and understanding other peoples lives and working with them and around them is required for democracy less we become totalitarian in our approach , negating other views of the world.
As for the point about anger , harnessed anger and self control and a focused point of view is an improvement upon the recent angry riots which to all account,apart from a few,was purposeless.
spot on
Our democracy is a sham and always has been. Once every so often we get an opportunity to vote in a government, our choice of who to vote for is influenced by a range of things which includes pre election promises and party manifestos. Once the goverment has been elected their pre election pledges can be abandoned (they lied), their statements of what they won`t do can be reversed(more lies – think no more top down reorganisation of the NHS), they can even go ahead with policies for which they have no mandate (think no more top down reorganisation of the NHS)and we cannot do a thing about it until either a general or by election. All parties do it and it is to the libdems eternal shame and never ever seeing power again that they proved as bad as the other parties. No wonder the Chinese government is casting an approving look at our systems. Greedy speculators and corporate greed have destroyed our economy and it is being paid for by people who do not have a million or so in the bank to see them through. Things have to change and if we, the people paying the price, don`t change them, no one will. I am filled with nothing but admiration for the protesters and wish them the best of luck in effecting change. We are not all in it together, the public know this, the few elite rich know it, cameron knows it
Would like to see Citizen’s Income and LVT land tax as specific demands of the Occupy movement.
Citizen’s – sometimes called Basic – Income is the only (and fair) economic way forward from the myth of full employment and the unsustainable GDP consumerist model on which the latter’s based. The GDP model assumes countries (and increasingly multi-national corporates) competing against each other to produce more of the same ‘stuff’ – generally unnecessary and ecologically/environmentally damaging. It’s an economic hangover from the old C19/20 colonialist political agenda, and fundamentally flawed because unsustainable: we can’t all compete against one another to produce the same things. Politicians know this but don’t want us to. They keep us hanging on by talking about bringing unemployment down, creating new jobs etc etc – and we fall in to their trap when, like the young people marching from Jarrow to London, our demands are for jobs/work by which is meant paid employment. Much socially useful work – some would say more – is unpaid, much paid employment socially useless, even damaging, let alone demoralising and boring.
A Citizen’s Income (to replace all other benefits, with a higher rate for pensioners) alongside, say, a 4-hr employment week would not only allow people the time and opportunity to develop interests/skills etc that they wouldn’t otherwise be able to do because those in work wouldn’t have time and those out of work are hounded constantly to look for same.
We have to wake up, and the Occupy movement is a catalyst for that.
LVT land tax – have rehearsed the arguments in its favour many times on Snowblog, so only brief outline here:
- fairest tax there is (Adam Smith, Marx and Churchill all supported, as do several Financial Times writers, eg Martin Wolf, Samuel Brittan);
- would help prevent land-banking, a major cause of house-price inflation;
- would discourage multiple home-ownership;
- would reduce tax evasion/avoidance, as land can’t be off-shored or hidden.
Hope there wasn’t anything offensive on my comment. Please forgive my struggle with unemployment.
We use our “privilege” every 4/5 years to employ people to make decisions for us.
These protests are about informing those employees in the only way we can outside of that “privilege” that the system is broken and we want change.
We don’t have the power to force the banks to better manage their finances. We don’t have the power to stop energy companies from controlling the entire supply change and getting fat juicy profit margins while we shiver ’cause we can’t afford the bills. We don’t have the power to end the ridiculous system that keeps petrol prices high because of what amounts to legalised price fixing. We don’t have the power to sack you when you show yourself to be corrupt and use public money and influence to benefit your best mates.
The protests are our only way of saying the system is broken and we want it fixed. If we knew how to fix it or had the ability to fix it we would tell you but we don’t, so that’s why there is no solution, no demand.
We’re angry about *everything* because everything is falling down around us through mis-management and greed.
Ok just for starters, I want
• a Tobin tax
• a few bankers in jail for reckless failure of risk management
• break-up of banks
• quantitative easing cash given to the poor who will actually spend it and boost the economy rather than the rich who just use it to inflate property prices.
• recall of MPs who fail to deliver
• an electable house of lords
• investment in jobs and a green economy
• affordable land released for self build
• a tax on empty property
……
good luck with that. bless. its far more important than that
Can I join your party? And also suggest tax breaks for job share schemes which offer each participating employee a living wage….
Isn’t the simple fact that they want their politicians to take as much notice of them as they do of the lobbyists, and to actually do something about the gross inequalities of the current form of capitalism?
It is ridiculous that the banks get bailed out but are then allowed to carry on as though nothing happened while ordinary workers in the public sector lose their jobs/ pay increases / pensions as a result.
And the politicians are leading the unfair decision making.
Nothing frightens politicians more than the thought of a mass movement that might see them lose their seat and OWS and its offshoots around the world must be making some politicians very nervous.
Cameron & Co will be hoping it goes away so they can carry on their Fox-friendly lifestyles on the backs of wealthy donors who want nothing in return, of course, except influence and no legislation to curb their money making on an obscene scale.
More power to the protesters. The fact that they are sleeping in the street in contrast to Mr Werrity’s five-star luxury hotels, makes the injustice of the system of influence rather neatly.
Delighted to hear from you, Sam – and with another spot-on post. Hope well.
Meantime thought Snowbloggers would enjoy this cartoon – from this morning’s Twitter – which goes to the heart of the matter:
http://is.gd/8dFuiN
This is worth a read:
http://t.co/eAdHaRCH<
particularly on the day St Paul’s clergy appear divided over allowing camp to remain on cathedral forecourt.
Channel 4 news ran a story on your watch about empty tents at St Pauls.This has since been proved false and deliberately misleading. Why did you not ask the questions.How was this info gathered? Who paid for the technology? Who wants to discredit the protestors because it seems you do alongside the Telegraph, The Sun and The Daily Mail. According to The Guardian,the Police deny that they were involved. This seems to me very lazy reporting.Please make sure you run an apology.
The majority of the private wealth in the UK is in the hands of 60+ generation who had the good years with good jobs and good pensions and made huge profits from the housing bubble. They still get free bus passes, low cost healthcare. Younger people will likely have none or little of what the older generation have: no job, no house and no pension. Is this fair?
The banks have played casino with our savings. The government has allowed this by decreasing their regulation. The bank of England, by keeping interest rates artificially low, only punishes frugal savers; the only ones doing the right thing. They protect wealthy homeowners from a deflating housing bubble. How is that fair?
It is a dangerous game to point the finger at other countries as if the eurozone is to blame for our troubles. The financial crisis was started In Wall street New York and London ( just look at the list of banks the US will sue because of the bad debt that led us to this point.) Let us be careful of nationalism on the back of a recession as this is precisely what led us into the 2nd world war. Many Europeans can easily point the finger at us and our financial sector in London.
We should also all look at our own borrowing and lifestyle. Only if we are honest and face up to unpleasant truths will things get better. More debt is not the answer. Printing money has caused terrible inflation and is destructive. Stop punishing the people who have done the right thing ( low borrowers and savers) or haven’t done anything wrong (young people). This will drag on forever if we throw more of the same “solutions” at the problem: don’t rescue bad banks, stop printing money, stop borrowing more . Things will get far worse if we continue making the same mistakes each time on an even bigger scale.
Too late!!!
The ConDem government have now borrowed more money than the labour government did in the last years of it’s of power. They are saddling the next generation of youth with the debts of yesterday. And to cap it all they will expect the British taxpayer to fund the ever-growing crisis in Europe!!!
To my opinion, Capitalism has failed as much as Communism has. Two words perfectly describe the source of faulure for these two systems. “Incentive” (or lack of) fails Communism, adn “Greed” fails Capitalism.
Capitalist giants in the retail sector will widely boast of their successes and obscene profits, but will make every effort to hide the fact that these profits are attained at the expense of the hard-working poor in society. The low paid farmers and labourers, the lowly factory workers and evn children who are sacrificed in the name of “profit” or “yield”.
Exploitation of the poor and slaves of Capitalism is what “yields” these obscene profits. Fred-the-Shred is laughing all the way to tha bank with his ill-gotten “yield” when he has indeed stolen it from the poor, the hard-working adults in Britain who now have lost their nurtured jobs, careers and personal success, and the real culprit enjoyed freedom and opulent wealth when indeed he should be held accountable and be sent to jail.
And the Clergy only correcting the “error” of their ways having realised that by evicting protesters at St Paul’s indeed exposed their hypocrisy.
It’s time we all stood together and sort these debilitating parasites leeching onto the poor. There has to be balance and a dire need to now constrain the excessive gains of those clever (devious?) enough to rip off and exploit the poor to feed their greed.
go here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TZRzHAlH73k
What was wrong here?
Where?
My comment has been awaiting moderation since 11:30am and I don’t know why? I didn’t write anything offensive
That’s “Big Brother” in action for you. Sedition is a crime you know!
Hi Bob – I don’t think your comment went through properly as it is not showing up – we didn’t block it, there’s nothing there to block! Apologies, Emma
somewhere else dude, dont do it here