The claim
“By the year 2050, in a mere 37 years, Britain will be a majority Muslim nation.”
Vincent Cooper, June 13 2013
The background
We don’t normally FactCheck other journalists, mainly because there’s enough spin from politicians to keep us busy.
But readers have asked for our take on a piece published on the Commentator website, which has generated a lot of online interest.
Vincent Cooper’s article, which has apparently attracted 2,600 “likes” on Facebook, suggests that birth rates among Muslims are much higher than among “native Europeans”.
The result is that, less than 40 years from now, the sound of church bells will apparently have been largely replaced by the Muslim call to prayer.
The article says it is based on “demographic facts”. What are the facts?
The analysis
There were 1.6 million Muslims in England and Wales in 2001, or 3 per cent of the population, according to the census. By 2011 the Muslim population had grown to 2.7 million people or 4.8 per cent of the population.
So there’s no doubt that the number of people who identify themselves as Muslims has grown rapidly in recent years.
We’ve tried to phrase that carefully, because most measures of population (the census, the Labour Force Survey) rely on people describing themselves as members of certain religious and ethnic groups, and people’s attitudes about how they identify themselves can change.
The Muslim population of Eastern European countries appeared to soar between 1990 and 2000, but the most likely explanation is that the population didn’t really grow – it’s just people felt more comfortable about identifying themselves as Muslim after the collapse of the communist system, in which religious self-expression was discouraged.
Similarly, some commentators have suggested that part of the apparent leap in the number of Muslims in England and Wales can be explained by a reaction to the “war on terror” and a growing willingness for people to claim Muslim identity.
The Muslim Council of Britain has said that the 2001 figure was an underestimate, because Muslims were reluctant to identify themselves as such at the time.
Nevertheless, it seems likely there has been a real increase in the Muslim population of Britain, due to a mixture of immigration and higher birth rates.
Mr Cooper concentrates on the issue of birth rates, and basically suggests that if fertility among Muslim women continues to be higher than other demographic groups, then extending current trends into the future will give us a Muslim majority by 2050.
That flies in the face of evidence which shows that, while fertility rates have historically been significantly higher among Muslims, birth rates are now dropping among Muslim immigrant populations in Europe and in Muslim countries.
Birth rates levelling off
A 2007 study by demographers Charles Westhoff and Tomas Frejka identified the same trend among Muslim immigrant populations in most countries where data was available, including Austria, Slovenia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and England and Wales.
The total fertility rate among Muslim women is almost always higher than that of the native population, but “with the passage of time Muslim fertility moves closer to the fertility of the majority of the population in the respective countries”.
In this country, the study tracks changing fertility rates among women from Pakistan and Bangladesh (assumed to be overwhelmingly Muslim).
Women from Pakistan and Bangladesh tend to have more children, but the fertility gap shrinks over the decades.
The US Pew Forum think-tank predicts that this gap will continue to diminish in the coming decades in all European countries.
It put the 2005-10 fertility rate among UK Muslims at 3.0, which means that the average British Muslim had exactly three children in her lifetime, compared to 1.8 children for non-Muslim women.
By 2030 the rate is predicted to fall to 2.5 for Muslims and remain at 1.8 for non-Muslims.
Clearly this does suggest that there will be an increase in the size of the Muslim population, but the prediction comes a long way short of the numbers claimed by Mr Cooper.
Assuming patterns of net immigration do not change significantly, the Pew Forum thinks that there will be just over 5.5 million British Muslims, representing 8.2 per cent of the UK population, by 2030.
None of this is an exact science, and some demographers say total fertility rate overestimates the lifetime fertility of immigrants because it doesn’t adjust for the fact that they tend to have children soon after arriving.
The verdict
Birth rates among native-born women are currently low across most of Europe and the developed world in general.
Demographers think a fertility rate of about 2.1 children per woman on average is necessary for the population of a developed country to sustain itself.
Most of the “native” populations of Europe are failing to have enough children, while birth rates are higher among Muslim immigrant populations, so it seems inevitable that the British Muslim population will rise in the coming decades.
But it’s equally clear that the gap in fertility between Muslim and non-Muslim will continue to lessen over time, as it has in recent decades.
Mr Cooper suggests that there are “strong cultural reasons for higher Muslim birth rates”, but this ignores the fact that birth rates have fallen dramatically in many Muslim countries.
FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.
By Patrick Worrall
Comments
Your verdict seems somewhat contradictory to the evidence that you have used.
The hypothesis is “Britain will have a Muslim majority by 2050″. You mention that in 2011, the percentage of Muslim people in England and Wales is 4.8%, and state that in 2030, the Muslim population will be 8.2 per cent, which means that in two decades, the population has increased 3.4%.
Also mentioned was that the birth rate eventually decreases, so if we assume that the birth rate will decrease and assume the percentage increase from 2030 to 2050 is approximately 3.0%, that equates to approximately 14% to 15%. Of course, immigration can’t be predicted, but assuming that the immigration rate is in fact constant, what hasn’t been taken into account is the potential increase in non-Muslim people leaving the country, causing the proportion of the population represented by Muslims to increase.
Stating that “FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10%” is an understatement, so with variables not taken into consideration and the evidence not being properly used, the real proportion could well be between 15% to 20% by 2050.
Another point to be considered: what is implicit in the claim that UK will be Muslim in the foreseeable future is the number, not of Muslims, but of Muslim voters. That is, there will be a “bulge” of Muslims amongst young voters before the birth rates decline to those of non-Muslims. A mentor of mine always maintained that demographic statistics meant little unless they were split by age and sex. I think it is this “bulge” of young Muslim voters that has got people worried.
what about CONVERTS and IMMIGRANTS? they might even surpass the birth rate !
Politicians are creating a “Muslim revival” to stir the pot and make more business by creating wars to benefit their own agenda.
According to Pew Research which is a lot more thorough and detailed study than this, UK’s population will more than double from 4.8% to 11.3% by 2050.
But London is already about 15% Muslim now, so in just 34 years London’s Muslim population could be 35% – 40% or higher, as London’s Muslim population is growing faster than the UK as a whole.
Pew’s research was before the millions of people arriving in the EU as a result of Merkel’s migrant crisis. It also does not take into account illegal immigrants, some estimate to be more than 500,000 in London alone, most of whom are likely to be Muslims given the make up of non-EU immigration in general.
If this is considered I believe London’s Muslim population could easily reach more than 50% by 2050.
But nowhere near 50%
You need to do about 20 years of homework based on real life experiences, rather than so called statistics which are easily juggled to suit whoever it will benefit most. I was born in Singapore and was educated in both Malaysia and Singapore. I base my knowledge and experience on 29 years of living among the Islamics. Experience is a far better teacher than some writer’s theory who most likely never left his home town. Oh well, I suppose ignorance is bliss. Not for me, though. I was the first one to document Islam’s torture of the Coptic Christians in Egypt through Amnesty International. For God’s sake, pull your head out of the sand!
Hi Elizabeth.
I read your article.
Please enlighten me more on your experiences with coptics and muslims.
Kind regards Ray
Thank you Elizabeth, real experience is far more accurate than some article that plays down the real world. I have had coptic friends killed by the Islamics. As one Islamic head honcho has said in the past, was for Muslims to multiply as much as possible and this will give more power to Muslims in the future and many are doing so. I feel bad for people who still have their rose colored glasses on and are not willing to see what our country is allowing to happen.
Yeah, your personal experience from living in a muslim country is more reliable than actual statistical data from the country we are talking about. Are you kidding me!!
I have often been wondering how even people that are against immigration, could believe in this kind of statement. It’s kind of scary, because if people will believe things that are so far off then it must be possible to make them believe pretty much anything.
Please read this an excellent follow-up article :http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5632/uk_muslim_population_of_26_million_by_2051
jez.
I think you made a grat point. The only thing I’d add is that Britain may think that the level of islamic immigration can be measured. However a little’ middle eastern bird’ told me that the muslim refugees already learned they can claim to be christian/protestant on their asylum applications. After arrival the’d even go to church on Sunday (for as long as they have to). So all the official statistics may be incorrect as they do not include these people
Saying that the fertility rate of western women will not continue to decrease is not based on fact as other western nations, Italy for example, have lower birth rates than us. So if a predominantly Catholic country can have such a low rate why shouldn’t that of Britain do the same? Also, leading muslims, e.g. Gaddafi, say that Islam will conquer the world by the wombs of their women. That being the plan it is unlikely that any drop in Muslim birth rates will continue. It is likely to increase or remain what it is now. On top of this it has been reported that the UK government recognises polygamous marriages which were conducted out side the UK and pays benefits accordingly. Many muslim men have several wives by whom they have large families. Many young muslim men also agree that polygamy is acceptable. So I do see the muslim population outstripping the non-muslims in the relatively near future. When the top name for baby boys in Britain is Muhammed (or any other variation of the spelling of this name) then it doesn’t bode well for future non-muslim people in this country.
Interesting how the fertility gap changes.
Did your research explore/research this?
I’d be interested to understand the factors behind it. For instance; do things such as dietary change, climate adjustment or socio-economic factors come into play?
Increased stability and life-expectancy produce lower birth rates. This is true across space (comparison of family size between rich and poor countries), time (comparison of family size between now and the 19th Century) and society (peasant farmers have more children to work the land, rich landowners have and heir and a spare).
Economic migrants, (almost by by definition), move to where they can expect a better standard of living. So the first generation family will be like their place of origin. After that, the birthrate drops to that of their new home.
the ‘british’ need to stand up and take charge of this island, we have worked here, paid our taxes here and we live here. This is our country, not a free ride for those who wont work..
Don;t worry too much, whoever lives will pay same tax. if you want to be a majority then sleep with the opposite sex more.
I really can’t see how your comment relates to this article???
Dont forget benefited massively from colonisation of these countries immigrants have come from. Dont worry though as atheism will dominate by 2070 not islam. Also ethnic grps that choose not to integrate will not benefit from better jobs and bettering themselves. Notice how indians are stark contrast to pakistanis and bangladeshis both as immigrants in uk and in their homeland. Progessive, education aware, successful and integrative.
Well then. That’s a good portion of the ‘native’ British population going to get kicked out of the UK then. The only solid reason the migrants come here is to take jobs that the native Brit is just too lazy to do themselves. Want a job? Get off your behind and go get one. Can’t find one? Take up a trade and make work for yourself. Like I did. You don’t get work sitting in the pub complaining about immigrants.
great i really want to clean cars for 2 pound an hour then send the money home to my family so they can live like kings because things are a ;pt cheaper in my country come on uk let me suckle your nipple for more milk and honey you treat us better than your own people,o and thanks for my free house,build more for us so i can bring grandmar and grandad,just tax your own people more then give it to us uk the land of milk and honey,,,……
Well, the thing is your right. Here have my house if you want. I’ll gladly live in a card board box for you your worship Muslim
I also pay my tax I think you need to do more research there are more white scroungers in this country then Muslims. We Muslims have set up our own businesses, have good professions doctors, solicitors, teachers, barristers, lawyers, accountants, CEO’s and well respected in the armed forces and police. I suggest you get off your backside and work for a change instead of blaming Muslims.
Ethnic origins are important connections to the land. Your family could be here for hundreds of years and still have no legitimate claim. Get used to indigenous Europeans organising.
I did not find to many Muslim defending this country in the armed forces during the second world war,,
Here are some U.K. government stats to ponder
“Muslims had the highest rates of disability, with 22.5% claiming a disability.
33% of Muslims in Great Britain had no qualifications in 2004, which is the highest rate of any religious group
between 1951 and 2001 (50 years)”
“In 2011 muslim’s had the highest level of unemployment.” (There’s no reason to believe that the stats have changed since 2011)
We are hear for our goods you stole from us in the past and still do
What an innaccurate, biased article. No mention of the large increase in conversion rates, and the fact that at the moment there are at least 2 billion Muslims worldwide; almost a 1/3rd of the population.
I agree that the 2050 figure is unreasonable. But you are also ignoring another reality which is right there and as plain as day. Non-Muslims have a fertility rate which means the population will decline. Muslims have a fertility rate (3.0, projected to go down to 2.5) which means steady growth. Also, there are no signs that Muslim immigration to the UK will slow down. Indeed with political instability in much of the Middle East and Pakistan, it is more likely that immigration of Muslims will increase, not decrease.
Finally, I have heard many times that as Muslims hang out in Europe their fertility declines. This may indeed be the case, but you are ignoring that new Muslims will continue to arrive and have those large families, and only then will their children, presumably, have the smaller families.
Which leads me to ask, based on these solid migration and fertility patterns, when will the Muslim population become over 50%? You have not established this will not happen. Indeed, you figures indicate that it must happen. Just not by 2050.
Let’s hope for all humanities sake when this day (Muslim majority in UK) does come in 2050 or 2075 the UK has already destroyed all it’s nuclear weapons. A scorched earth policy will be best I’m sad to say. For those of you thinking of getting out- do it now before it’s too late.
Cathy/Patrick,
All organised religion is riddled with superstitious muck.
As an atheist, I couldn’t care less about Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism or any of the other loony claptrap. The problem is, history shows few of them will leave the rest of us alone. Individual deeply held faith is one thing, and to be respected, but once it is organised it invariably turns into the madness of pickled dogma.
It doesn’t make much difference which of them dominates society. At organised mass level they always end up hating or killing or ostracising anybody who disagrees with them. How many historical and current examples do we need?
As for ms. Cooper’s claim – sheer alarmist poppycock and rampant paranoia. We have a deeply flawed society, but it is secular by choice while superstitious religions slowly wither away, churches close and congregations shrink. Freedom from physical conflict will increase this trend.
The sooner the whole tragi-comedy fades from human existence the better.
Philip Edwards,
An atheistic utopia will not rid the world of strife, persecution and murder- Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot showed us that very clearly!
As to the demise of christianity………..you are saying nothing that philosopher Voltaire didn’t say several centuries ago. “Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world”
He also said within a hundred years Christianity would be swept away and no longer remembered! Later he was practically forgotten whilst his house in Geneva was used to print bibles!
It’s not just a question of the triumph of atheism (and by the way, civilised non-belief as exercised in the West is not equivalent to an extreme dictatorship driven by ideological conformism); it’s also that people, moslems and others, come to Europe to work and bring up families under conditions where religious culture and a fossilised class/caste system do not dominate. When their children visit their parents’ homeland they do not fail to draw comparisons between living standards and rights in the old and new societies.
The important thing in Europe is to suppress racist activists who are attempting to put the clock back and create communalist conflict such as one sees in many parts of the devout east.
Too true, add up the numbers exterminted by atheist regimes and if you ignore it you are just sticking your head in the sand.
It is slightly disingenuous to mention Stalin, Mao and PolPot, as they didn’t commit all those things because they are atheists.
Grow a brain please, your atheistic ideology is just as intolerant as those of the religious.
It may not happen in 2050, but it will happen. Muslims will be the majority in UK in less than hundred years. Forget fifty percent, when they are twenty percent, you will feel the heat. Demographic change will change the culture and many other things you take for granted.
Mr Edwards – Please explain to me why the in the last century atheists in Russia killed over 10 million of their people, in Cambodia 2.5 million, in China it might be 35 million. If you think other religions are dangerous to your health try evangelical atheists.
Hello,
Good work,good projection.
I can see the work only showcase how the muslims population will overshadow the non-muslims but the work does not show how we can me a provision for adjustment in the populaation of non- muslim.
For example non-muslims immigrants from countries like Nigeria are being denied VISAS heavily.
Christains are being killed on daily basis by the same people you give your VISAS to. It is annoying hearing these issues. What else do we want us to do.Tell me we dont have any xtian Country but in the case of Islam you know yourself the numbers of countries they retain.
Laws are being promulgated everyday to hamper xtian and our activities. No wonder Jesus mentioned it that will He come back to meet faith on earth again?
OOH! I have forgotten to tell you the number of xtain that have been sent to their early graves in Nigeria can not be estimated .
So what are we talking about here .It is not only the problems of of EU but the whole world.Do you know what the Emirate might likely to come out with as times goes on. See it today people prefer these plases because of Tax free,jobs, and some other benefits.Countries that were bulit in Catholic…
when this bunch become larget than a certain % of population, trouble follows. Good bye peace & the enlightenment & scientific rationalism…. back to failry tales and the stone age as per sunni vs Shiites..
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=30675
Do you have an article on the amount of people converting to Islam? That would be interesting to look into.
A useful analysis. It would be nice if you could find any stats about Muslim converts and conversions away from Islam. – Will Muslims resist integration into our society indefinitely? Will our society change to accommodate them in additional ways?
Does it really matter,I am not religious and dont really care,everyone has a right to life,regardless of whatever beliefs you follow.
You say Muslims fertility rate vs non Muslims fertility rate, the figures show its nearly double and has been up to nearly 5 times for Muslims, you then suggest it will drop to 2.5 with out evidencing why. Also not taking into consideration David Blunketts admission we do not know how many immigrants are in the country so how many are having babies that are not taken into account?
And of course non Muslims means
, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Atheists, Whites, Blacks, Mixed race couples, Irish, Scottish, Chinese, Japanese, other Europeans, and of course all of these demographics have a growing percentage of homosexuals that are not a factor within the Muslim demographic.
That is 15 other demographics,
Here are some facts taken from the Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wikileaks-files/london-wikileaks/8304838/UK-MUSLIM-DEMOGRAPHICS-C-RE8-02527.html
Muslims households were the least likely to be homeowners (52%) and are the most likely among all religious groups to be living in accommodation rented from the council or housing association (28%); 4% live rent-free.
32% of Muslim households live in overcrowded accommodation. Average…
The above estimates/guesses do not go beyond 2030. What is likely to happen 2030-2050?
Apart from the assumptions of the relative differential in Muslim, and non-Muslim birth rates, the following information needs to be included:-
1.) on-going scale and trends in immgration into the UK for Islamic countries,
from 2013- 2050.
Most of such immigrants will be of procreating age.
2.) on-going scale and trends in emigration from UK of non-Muslim British people,
from 2013-2050.
Excellent analysis! Well done Patrick.
I add that the motivation for having children is often personal and also appears to reflect families needs to have enough grandchildren that can support aged adults. A sort-of pension fund by investing in children.
Nowadays, that “pension need” has been over-taken by the existence of savings systems that enables people to accumulate claims on the incomes of future populations of the State.
Moreover, families often unintentionally end up following the norms of their neighbourhoods. So that, as minorities (such as Muslims) move away from select neighbourhoods we notice that they have about the same number of children as their non-muslim neighbours. Same as Catholic birth-rates since the 1960s: folk assimilate towards the ‘norm’ as has happened spectacularly in Glasgow and Liverpool since 1950s.
Well done. Looking forward to Vincent Cooper’s retraction and apology. The willingness of some journalists and publications to present twaddle as fact is a stain on the profession.
Typical Channel 4 “News”. This so-called news programme has become a propganda tool for the mass-immigration, multicultural lobby
ELIZABETH II is also Mrs von Battenburg. Her husband is suposed to be a former Greek prince. But his name doesn’t sound very Greek.
Before Elizabeth married Phillip, her name should have been Elizabeth Saxe Coburg. But, what with a war with Germany starting in 1914, her grand parents thought it wise to change their family name to “Windsor”. Perhaps it’s just as well their family home at Windsor Castle wasn’t called “Mon repos” or “Dun Roaming” (both popular names of homes in those days)! Windsor’s a good name.
In those days, most immigrants changed their family names to something anglophone, just like our Royal Family has done. Which may be why you don’t notice all those descendants of immigrants who surround you!
Interesting assumptions above. 1. Muslims in the UK don’t work, they only take benefits. Most of them come here for that sole purpose. 2. Unlike any other immigrant group, Muslims won’t adapt in any way to living in the UK. 3. No Muslims will ever leave the UK once they’ve arrived. 4. Any research which doesn’t fit a particular view of the world should be rubbished 5. Any column which doesn’t fit a particular view of the world should be rubbished.6. Any news channel or media that doesn’t fit a particular view of the world should be rubbished.
When I read comments like these I can perfectly well see why British Muslims feel isolated & threatened. And communities in such circumstances are less likely to adapt. Perhaps we might reflect that the reason why most Muslims are here is because we invaded their countries, annexed them to the British Empire, ruled over them, extracted considerable amounts of wealth from them – and told them they were British citizens with a right to come to the “Mother Country”. Oh dear! We didn’t really mean it, but they took us up on it!
In 2 generations, we’ll look back on storms in a teacup like this and laugh (well, someone will, I’ll be…
what utter Lefitish tosh from C4, In Bradford 75% of Muslims are married to their cousins from Pakistan. So, their birthrates don’t adjust down, just ask Bradford council – it is the most overcrowded place in the country.
Dear Philip,
It is true that in the past the commonwealth and other third world countries were plundered by the British Empire.But if anyone should hold a grudge against the British royalty,it is -the Hindu-majority population of India.Because it is here that the British imperialism caused the massive damage.Before the arrival of the Britons, the Hindus suffered at the hands of the invading Muslims.But the Hindu community,showed enough grit and resilience fighting back forced conversions, mass-atrocities and genocides and that is why the hindu community is still the majority community in India standing strong at approximately 880 million even after almost 600 years of foreign rule.This numbers are keeping aside the followers of Buddhism and Jainism which can be considered as the offsprings of Hinduism,the Hindu country of NEPAL and the followers of Hinduism elsewhere.But coming to the core issue, i believe that there is no justification in holding a grudge against the British royalty for the atrocities they committed here before the birth of our grandfathers..so i do not see the point why the muslims should either..
Typical super left wing dross from Channel 4.
It would be wonderful, for once, if what we heard on the News these days was truthful and honest AND believable. Cathy Newman and the like are frightened to report the truth, with a media gun to their heads, they read out what they are ordered to. Maybe one day we might get someone with an ounce of courage, who will literally, live on air, stand up and shout “I can’t continue with all of this!” Wouldn’t that be great, but i’m not holding my breath!!!
You are forgetting the convertion of the indigenous population to Islam.
The fearful call it conquered by immigration.
Fiji was left with an Indian population who were left behind after independence. Without integrating and taking hold of the economic reigns of that country, the final straw for re indigenous was to lose a parliamentary majority. Those people look on their land as holy and their ancestors to be guardians of the people. Shocked at losing power on their own land they rose up and began to kill the Indians with in their midst. Heinous murders were committed through out the land. The usual blame game started and the Fijians were accused as rascists but who is to blame when the British dump different people’s all over the world without a thought for the locals.
If Islamic sharia law is a likelihood then you will see an uprising of the indigenous population all over these British isles. No to sharia law!
I think when there is a serious attempt to impose Sharia and there are more attacks on Britain by ‘ Britons’ of Pakistani origin there will be the start of a backlash. Like in Fiji, the masses of the indigenous population will rise up, and then years of humiliation and denigration of our country and culture (facilitated by the likes of Blair and co) will come to an end, I have faith in the British and it will happen, maybe not yet but it will!
Your readers make some very relevant points regarding continued immigration and emmigration as well as conversion which are all pertinent. Furthermore,in many ways it is not the overall number or percentage of muslims that is most important, it is the local numbers; changes to the culture of the area where there is a reluctance to assimilate; population movements (i.e.”white flight”); the development of different ethnic enclaves and the perpetuation of a sense of difference. Even within racial groups (as in Northern Island) this became a recipe for terrible violence. It takes a supreme degree of optimism if we are to presume that such social division will occur peacefully. But that could take us back to such visions as Powell’s “rivers of blood” which, of course, we are told we must never express – or else we will be condemned as racists.
It’s starting to look like Canada will become more like Japan as we weed out these undesirables from our society, at first we welcomed these people until we saw they were more savage then anticipated, they have not evolved any more then the ape, actually the ape has shown more compassion for mankind then any islamic muslim . These people by their own actions have shown they have no respect for women or children, it is nothing for a 40 yr old muslim man to have his way with a 10 yr old boy or girl, this is disgusting, as well they have no value on human life, plus they worship a fake god, and read from the book of the beast(quran), so these people are no longer welcomed in Canada.
the muslim population is already over 10% in schools, so it will definitely be over 10%. At which point the country will start to collapse into ethnic conflict. There isn’t a country in the world with a Muslim population over 15% that isn’t in violent conflict.
I’d just like to say, after reading this I see no mention of the british converts.. Coming to islam, I myself am one.. So is my brother, his wife, 5 of my neighbours and our previous local priest. (In Reading Uk) also since getting married and living in london, I have met atleast 10 white irish converts, a handful of chinease converts, black converts and I have met manyyy ex christian conerts (all british) so you have not taken this into consideration and you are shifting away from this huge factor, immigration is a small part of it, but u see, my brother and his wife (both white muslims) are expecting a child any day now, my 5 friends have had babys so now this is a new generation of muslims.
Please do a statistic of how many people are coming to islam.
Peace be upon you
I couldn’t find any good figures on this BritishConvert. And of course we would have to know how many people are leaving Islam or converting to a different religion (which people may not want to make public) if we wanted a “net” figure.
Despite the obsession of many posters with people’s religion the key question for the future is not “What God do people believe in” but what will the values of the future British population be.
Will they support equality of the sexes? Will they be more homophobic and anti-Semitic than the current British population? Will they regard the law of the land as the final arbiter rather than some religious tenet when it comes to what they actually do rather than what they believe? Will they realise the importance of both freedom of religion and freedom of expression? Will they realise that criticism of a religion and its tenets can improve religion or cause its adherents to think through a robust defence accepted by all? Will they have British phlegm rather than resort to childish violence in the face of affront? Will they appreciate the decentralisation of power between various organs of government and the private sector in Britain and how this allows us, along with freedom of expression and freedom of information, to keep corruption within manageable bounds?
For that matter do even the ethnically British appreciate some of these things? Do they appreciate living in a country…
If you are a convert to Islam, perhaps you havn’t read Trifkovic’s ‘ The Sword of the Prophet” or Peter Townsend’s ‘ Questioning Islam’?
Not to mention ‘Inside Islam. A Guide for Catholics’ by Daniel Ali and Robert a Spencer, Spencer’s ‘Islam Unveiled’, ‘ Islam revealed’ by Anis Shorrosh or Ibn Warraq’s ‘What the Quran Really Says’?
Don’t need to read all that. All I needed to read was 2010 equality act on religious discrimination, lots of public funds and public bodies accountable in a way they were not when non Muslim. Truth is better off being Muslim than not.
“FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.”
That is slipperiness worthy of a politician.
For one thing, whether you should bet depends on the prize.
More important, you do not explain why you cite the Pew Forum (“thinks that there will be just over 5.5 million British Muslims, representing 8.2 per cent of the UK population, by 2030”) but then dismiss there being a further increase of just 1.8 percentage points over the following 20 years.
Seems to me you are just pursuing the usual media line that immigration and multiculturalism are “good things” and anyone who argues otherwise holds “extreme views”..
What a load of bollocks! Every ethnic minority grows as the population of a country gets bigger but that is all Muslims in Britain will ever be.. An Ethnic Minority.
you are so stupid!
What is the current percentage of musliums in the uk?
To state that you obviously hadn’t read the article would be the fippant response to enquiring what the current percentage of the UK population that is Muslim is (which I think is what was meant) but the article doesn’t actually state the percentage of the UK population that is Muslim. It states that the 2011 census revealed that Muslims accounted for about 4.8% of the population of England and Wales. Whilst claiming that Muslims are more likely to identify themselves as such post 9/11 than pre 9/11, it took the 4.8% figure as a statement of fact, ignoring the possibility that any of the 7% who chose not to identify their religion may be Muslim (whilst claiming that many Muslims had taken that option 10 years earlier). A significant proportion of that 7% may well be. It is known that 10% of school children are Muslim and it’s also known that many of them will marry overseas, bringing their spouses back to the UK, thus increasing the proportion further. Suggesting that Muslims may never exceed 10% of the population is utterly preposterous.
Great article, I would also add how troublesome it is for muslims to get married. Only the well off muslims get to have wife and kids. It’s more of a wealth thing than anything else. Other thing that needs to be taken into account is the fact, that They will become westernised by the exposure to our culture.
Surge of religious and patriotic feelings as a side effect of finding anew Your identity after emigrating is a well known fact.
The article mentions nothing about muslims leaving the religion. Current estimates are that over 200,000 have left the religion and this number is growing.
Dear Lord,
Do you really think the British natives are so stupid to believe your utter tripe? The true Moslem population is already well above 5.5 million. Half of them don’t fill in the census. Take a train ride during any hour of the day and you hardly hear English anymore without a foreign accent! This is the Home Counties “situation”…Stop lying!
As a recent visitor to your country (uk) I was flabbergasted to see so few of the native Britons. Instead I felt most of the time I was in a strange middle eastern country, quite grubby and not safe. I believe the last native Britons will be living in the regent park zoo around 2050.
Yes different lens I recently also visited the England and noticed a huge change in racial make up in the last 25 years. Personally I think driven by political ego and the benefits culture it offered. On my visit I was speaking to a resident Japanese fellow who told me too many blacks , Muslims and Asians are destroying England and he didn’t like it. Let’s face it the time of the white European is all but finished. The best he can hope for is his genes mix in to survive another century.
Before the UK becomes a muslim majority lets hope for all humanity the UK destroys all it’s nuclear weapons. Otherwise imagine the US having to disarm the UK by force?
Just read a book, The Crusader’s Arms with the scenario you envisage. Very worrying!
She’s made her conclusions before hand and just twist assumptions and figures to suit this; like most journalists and academics (most of whom are on the political left and support mass immigration).
I would also like to note that the statistic was 50% will be NON-WHITE but you obviously have chosen someone wrongly quoting it and presenting it in a fashion (with know other references) that this is the figure used by those who are anti-mass immigration. this is the figure used. Even a turbo charged labour party would have difficulty getting to 50% muslim but no doubt thanks to them we are on the way to becoming a white minority country. So you have obviously made an amateur academic article (with lots of unproved ‘assumptions’ and ignoring other aspects).
“The Muslim Council of Britain has said that the 2001 figure was an underestimate, because Muslims were reluctant to identify themselves as such at the time.”
As a result the true number of muslims of the country is, as you quoted from, under estimated. However you still use that figure for your projections even though the muslim council know that the number is too low. The 2001 census was taken in April 2001, before the 9/11 so there can be no argument that the underestimation was down to 9/11. Considering the shambles of the home office as well as many muslim people who are here illegally who will no doubt eventually gain official citizenship (if LibLabCon get their way) as any attempts to remove them will pandered in the media as ‘racist’.
Your assumption that the fertility rate will fall significantly is also false. While the fertility rates of Sikhs, Indians, west indies etc have fell muslims have not.
Overall the articles clear aim is alongside most MSM coverage is tell people there is not a problem when there clearly is. People will believe a lie if you make it big enough. Even then when the media do recognise it they will say that they are all so peaceful and holier than holier and its all a ‘phobia’ (definition: an irrational fear). If they’re so wonderful why don’t you send your daughters to live in ‘wonderful’ multi-cultural cities like Bradford, Rochdale and Oxford (ironically where most of those in politics and the media, alongside Cambridge, went to university to ‘learn about the world’)
“FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.”
Well what is going to happen in 2025 (or 2020 if Labour get in) when the Muslim population is 1 in 10? Will you be held accountable for your academically disingenuous article? Nope, you will not have to say anything as you will be in an an even nicer cushy job at channel 4 or another media outlet because you’ve riden the gravy train of ‘celebrating’ Mass Immigration/Multiculturalism and the resulting erosion of the real white British identity.
Modern Britain is no different from the soviet systems of old. Peddle the lies and you will be rewarded.Do not and you will outcasted.
The number of Elvis Presley impersonators has reached an all-time record high – there are now at least 85,000 Elvis’s around the world, compared to only 170 in 1977 when he died. At this rate of growth, experts predict that by 2019 Elvis impersonators will make up a third of the world population.
ScienceWorld Online 3rd December 2000 on the dangers and falsities of extrapolating current statistical trends and projecting into the far future.
I’d come to this country too if I had the chance. Then on reading the comments to this article or such, realise that some of the people here are too ignorant to grasp the fact, that if they were in that position, and had the chance to, they would too; and that those people are generally the ones without a good bone in their bodies. This is regardless of fertility, religion, country of origin. Look at the world, we have it very good in this country, let’s keep it that way and make it better, no matter who lives here. Or you could keep up the doom and gloom that seems to please you so much.
The readers comments make interesting reading. I’m puzzled how Muslim automatically means non-white? As someone mentioned the conversion rate of English born, white people is increasing particularly amoungst the females. I appreciate people are going the other way so would that make them more acceptable? The notion that it’s only Muslims who are taking the benefits or migrating to the country is ridiculous, what about the poles or Romanians flooding in? Or is is due to them not being Muslims? Although it’s ok to ask the rich Arabs to bring their wealth into the country and to own our football teams but only if they do as they are told. This is the 3rd or 4th generation Muslims who are very different to the generations before, doctors. Solicitors, teachers even soldiers all contributing to the UK.
European immigrants are welcome in the UK. They work hard and make few demands on social services.
On the contrary, Muslims by the boat load are being shipped across the Med by muslim trafficing gangs. We need to adopt an EU policy (like Australia does) of towing them back to where they came from (and to hell with stupid women who choose to embark on such perilous journies when 8 months pregnant or with children).
Europeans: WAKE UP! The concept of ‘Islamic Democracy’ is an oxymoron.
One query regarding the stated claim of the Muslim Council of Britain – why would Muslims have been reluctant to identify themselves as such in the census taken in April 2001?
I expect that similar dire predictions were being made about jewish immigrants at the end of the 19th century when they were flocking here (& to the USA) in large numbers. But a century or so later the actual position is that the UK jewish population is falling, partly because there are so many “mixed” marriages, the children of which do not follow the jewish faith. At the moment it may seem that such a dilution of the UK muslim population could not possibly occur, but another generation (ie 30 years) down the road & the picture may look very different.
i think aetheism will be the majority if we’re looking at what people do or don’t believe.
You have missed an incredibly important point.
I assert that Islam is a religion with rules that tip the demographic balance towards itself, whether in a situation of segregation or mixing with other religions; In a situation of segregation, the aim is to procreate faster than any ‘rival’ (and the Quran is specific that all others than Muslims are rivals frowned upon by God) communities. In a situation of integration or ‘Mixed’ births, simply if the person is following the Quran then any children born from this relationship will be considered Muslim and recorded as such in any count by the Muslim parent(s) (regardless of what the child or growing young person themselves believes).
I shall argue this in the following stages:
1) Islam demands that all relationships involving sex (procreation) are marriages.
2) All men in a ‘muslim’ marriage must be muslim, if not to begin with they must convert.
3) A woman may stay whatever religion she is (though many convert in these relationships for love, due to pressure or indeed true belief), but that is not important because of the next point.
4) All children from a ‘Muslim’ marriage, according to Islam, are counted as Muslim (and all their descendents forever).
5) To openly admit giving up Islam, is a crime for which Mohamed said your murder will be automatically forgiven by God (according to the hadiths).
6) The Quran tells Muslim women that it is their duty to procreate as much as possible (but ONLY with a Muslim man) thereby adding to the numbers and strength of the Umma (Muslim community/constituency).
Consider this:
100 Muslim men marrying 100 non-Muslim women (fine according to Islam)= all children being born Muslim (and preferably taught the Muslim way of viewing the world).
100 Muslim women, marrying 100 non-Muslim men (if the women truly follow the directions of Islam, this would not happen)= (according to Islam) All 100 men converting to Islam. End result: All children being born Muslim (and preferably taught the Muslim way of viewing the world).
Please tell me if I have misunderstood or misrepresented the rules of Islam in any way and if my conclusions are wrong.
If not, then it is clear to me why a non-Muslim, or even a Muslim who does not believe in religious domination by one faith, whatever that may be (I make this description very quietly for fear of exposing them), may have a right to be very concerned about the implications of these numbers and the policy-makers lack of willingness to open the debate on this issue.
The previous poster has made a valid, critical point. The muslim birth rate is being driven to some degree by cultural expectation, which Christianity and atheism do not share – if anything, non-muslims are aggressively driving down their own birthrates due to increased costs of childcare/living, even more so in the last few years. Also, as mentioned elsewhere, it doesn’t matter if second generation immigrants have less children, because there is a never ending influx of new immigrants who have many children – this is showing no sign of changing. Illegal immigration also shows no sign of having any form of control whatsoever.
In my opinion, based on the blatant expansion/saturation of Muslims, coupled with lack of integration, and gradual increases in emigration of non-muslims, it is a foregone conclusion that Muslims will be the majority within 100 years. Based on the current level of resentment at the current population levels, future increases are undoubtedly going to lead to strife.
For any non-muslims thinking, “so what, does it matter?”, you are basing your assumptions on a false premise that your own culture won’t be under pressure – when muslims are the majority, or remotely approaching it, you are unlikely to be allowed to continue to live day to day without being affected by growing resentment that ‘you’ are not conforming to your increasingly Muslim neighbourhood, since you do not believe what they do, and are therefore not worthy.
Until you experience being woken up at 4am by a neighbour playing the call to prayer, every day, and then played every few hours, you haven’t sampled the best of muslim culture heading your way. Google it if you’re not familiar with it, then turn the volume to 11.
I look forward to seeing the next census results, they will be very interesting; I for one do not plan on still living in the UK by then.
The last two comments are all anyone needs to read on this topic. Islam is a totalitarian ideology which controls every aspect of the followers life. Unless you live or work within a predominantly Muslim environment you have no idea. Also, try and name one non Islamic country with a Muslim population of more than 15% that has not been engulfed in violence. Even historically they offer their victims two choices, conversion or death. Do you really think even if many white Brits of non Islamic following have lost the courage through multicultural propaganda and living detached from reality in a 99% white British market town, that it means all other Brits and other here have done also? Ask a Sikh or a Hindu if they will accept this and they say they will fight to the death. Ask a Rasta, African Christian and the response is the same, because these people are not detached, they know Islam and they know how destructive it is because it views all non Muslims and non Islamic cultures as inferior. The recent Trojan school issue was brought up by Hindus for the nost part. Tower Hamlets corruption and intimidation/violence was brought up by black Cheistians living there. The issues in Bradford was brought up by Sikhs. Muslim rape gangs was brought up by Sikh communities years ago! How much on all this do we hear with regards to condemnation fron Muslims? None. Silence. Do you think all these other non Islamic people will stand by idle even if White Brits have lost their mind and/or courage? The country is heading for major conflict, very violent, even balkanization, the liberal day dreamers and channel 4 multicultural self serving ruthless career opportunists may want you to think otherwise but only for their own selfishness or their own naivety. Conflict is coming and it’s going to be murder, whether we want to believe it or not.
People are leaving islam too it’s not. I myself i’m a ex muslim
Former Muslim, good for you. I hope for the future of Western civilisation that others will follow.
In th0se days Britons great grand parents colonised the muslim lands, took their treasure t u england and killed many of them. Now is the muslims turn to come and share what have been taken. Its the will of Allah. Its the rising tide of Islam. Britons should take this opportunity, to learn about Islam and if they find it is the truth and Allah willing the will find, the come to the fold of Islam and be part of the tide. Allah is the greatest.
If were playing some kind of tit for tat. Muslims are far ahead I’m afraid, How do you think The Christian Arabic/north African, Spanish and subcontinental lands of the 7th century became Islamic overnight. By the sword. Islam has attacked the gates of Europe, often winning throughout the last 1500 years. Even if it that wasn’t the case (which it is), There hasn’t been an empire in history that isn’t expansionist, But the (few countries of Europe, but you want them all to suffer) that were involved in colonialism are meant to held up to a higher standard for some (racism be my guess) reason.
This is why we should only pay child benefit for the first two children nothing for the 3rd and 4th and reduce the benefit on the first two children by 10% for each subsequent child over four.
The muslims want England and the way its going they will take it over.I see no way of stopping them and they will continue to to gain positions in business,media and politics.I dont call that multi cultural Britain,DO YOU.
Birth rates level off for the taxpaying population. Welfare recipients, like most Muslims, are able to continue having large families at the taxpayers expense. This is how it worked in the US with blacks after the creation of the welfare state. Black population growth was much higher than for white taxpayers.
> The Muslim population is currently 4.8%.
> British Muslims, will represent 8.2 per cent of the UK population, by 2030. (a rise of 70% in 20 years, while native population declines).
> FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent,
The quality of public thought on the issue in a nutshell. This article, while convincingly debunking the ‘50% by 2050’ line, is thoroughly damning to the broader point you are trying to make, and doesn’t say much to Channel 4’s credibility.
Your article is not serious. Lots of supositions, “appears”, “may be explained” as another commenter wrote, your conclusiones cotnradict the data
Channel Four have a vested interest in obscuring the truth about immigration, others do not. In 2013 there was a new analysis of the 2011 census results. The analysis was by Professor David Coleman of Oxford University, an expert in demography, for the Migration Observatory think-tank. In it, Professor Coleman confirmed the prediction he made in 2011 that at current rates of migration white British people will be a minority in the population by 2066.
An analysis of his study shows that between 2004 and 2008, the Muslim population of the UK grew at an annual rate of 6.7 percent. Based on the current Muslim birth-rate this means that the Muslim population of Britain will rise to over 15 per cent by 2030 and by 2050 would exceed 50 per cent of the total British population. At that stage Britain officially becomes a Muslim nation, and there is no majority Muslim nation in the world not governed by sharia law.
If we ignore the predictions in The Crusader’s Arms we only have ourselves to blame. I have read it twice and it worried me more the second time.
By looking at birth rates and other impossible to evaluate statistics we miss the whole picture.
The facts collected from the census results from 1961 to date show an exponential rise in the NUMBER of muslims in England and Wales.
50,000 muslims in 1961
2.9 million in 2011
In the last 3 decades the annual increase in the Muslim population has been between 5 and 6 %.
Assuming a future increase of this level say, 5.5% the Muslim population would double every 13 years. It is easy to see how long it would take to get to get a Muslim majority.
For those who say the rate of increase might diminish you need to provide pretty convincing evidence which would buck a consistent 50 year trend.
In the name of helping people get a better life, you English are tying a noose around your own necks. It saddens me just how naive our democratic, hyper politically correct governments are. Yes, lets just hold hands and sing coom by ah. Europe will erupt into violence in time. And, when the time comes, your so called democracy will be no more. Hope im wrong!
There’s good and bad in everyone but and the end of the day we can’t all move to a country with a back bone like Australia!
I think the figure that Muslim couples will have on average over 2 children and non Muslim couples is a static 1.6 children shows there will be a steady increase over time of a growing Muslim population, the fact that it slows down in the 2nd generation immigrants just slows the birth rate of Muslim children per couple but it still is over the 2.0 per couple and over 0.4 + of the British non muslim population.
Thst is without the steady flow of new immigrants coming into the country thst have that initially high birth rate of over 6.0 per couple pushing things even further.
just do the maths people.
I for one am worried.
The age at which women have children must be taken into account. Muslim women tend to have children at a much younger age. They are often already grandmothers by the time many non Muslims get round to having their first child. Look at it this way, if a group have a fertility rate of 3 and there are roughly five generations in 100 years, a couple will have 243 descendants at the end of that period. If the fertility rate is 2 and there are only three generations in 100 years a couple will have 8 descendants
Some people are ‘good’ people , some people are ‘ bad ‘ people. Wars and injust policies can push people in different directions and so conflicts arise. When that happens and people feel unable to pursue their chosen path they fight back. The unadulterated consumerism in many countries will always be met with poverty and unfairness elsewhere. Fighting amongst ourselves or claiming the moral high ground doesn’t wash for most people. Most people want to be able to look after their family and have a reasonable quality of life. If this balance was to occur then the world would be happier and the radicals on all sides would fade away.
I have an idea – how about all the native christian poms come to Australia. Great climate, speak our language and a great culture match.
Isn’t 1% too many though? That’s the thing with diversity, you don’t need too much to corrupt the ethnostate. I live in a very diverse country and the only thing it does is split the population politically. “Getting along” is much rarer than conflict.
This business of “tolerance” is a disease of the white man that puts feeling above self interest, even when other tribes don’t. Even saying “tribe” scares these people. And no, I don’t like in the UK.
BUT NO SALVATION IN ISLAM IS GUARANTEED EVEN IN KORAN SAYS THAT THAT IS YOUR BOOK, YOU WILL END UP TO THE OTHER SIDE LOOK AT CREDENTIALS LORDSHIP AUTHORITY SOVEREIGNTY ALL OTHER FACTOR OF JESUS,THAT ALLAH AND MUHAMMAD NEVER DONE LIKE JESUS THAT IS WHY NOT THE RELIGION OR SYSTEM BUT GOD AND SAVIOUR
JESUS (HE) HAS DONE EVERYTHING, BIBLE IS PERFECT, SPIRITUALLY BLIND PEOPLE CANNOT SEE.
AS HOLY SPIRIT IS GIVEN ONLY TO CHRISTIANS BY JESUS THAT IS WHY THEY BECOME CHRISTIAN.
BE CAREFUL OF ALL OTHER WAY BUT DONE NOTHING FOR YOUR SALVATION, ETERNITY IS THE MOST CRUCIAL AS YOU END UP IN HELL OR IN HEAVEN FOREVER.
NOTES: JESUS CAME DOWN. DONE EVERYTHING PAID OUR DEBT ON THE CROSS AS WE ARE SINFUL PEOPLE, HE RESURRECTED BECOME THE MOST HIGH. ALL AUTHORITY OF HEAVEN AND EARTH IS GIVEN TO CHRIST JESUS NOT ALLAH , MOHAMMAD BUDDHA ALL THE OTHER ARE FALSE AS THEY DONE ZERO OR ONLT BITS AND PIECES. THINK ABOUT THAT.NEXT COMING HE IS THE JUDGE SO HE WILL DECIDE, NO ONE ELSE..
I HOLD STRONG IN JESUS NO MATTER WHATAS I KNOW HE IS THE LORD OF SALVATION.GOT IT.JACKY
REPENT AND TRUST IN JESUS ALONE.
To save a place in paradise, you have to be a Muslim. Quran says, no other religion will be accepted by God except Islam. The ones born muslim are very very lucky as long as they stick to god’s rules.
A lot of non Muslims around the world converting to Islam after finding out the truth about this religion. Those who are not muslims yet needs to be educated about Islam, follow Islam and save yourself from hell fire.
When I was a child (young child) I used to believe in Santa Claus..
wakey wakey?
I find the comments somewhat unnecessarily defensive from the “natives”. If muslims become the majority then what is the problem with that? Islam doesn’t represent a race. If one was a native British he can still be pagan a Christian a jew or a muslim.
Nobody condemns the Australians or the Americans from whom many of “native British ” went and settled and chased out the real native Americans or Australians. I never read one article worth the name condemning that yet when the tables are turned all “natives” are being worried about “overrun”. Very small thinking
The problem is that for a Muslim the system of religious law, Sharia, is regarded as being above any secular law system
Most majority Muslim countries are run in accordance in accordance with Sharia and are to be regarded as theocracies. I would have to question the legitimacy of democracy itself, if Britain were ever likely to have a majority of its population voting to incorporate Sharia into mainstream British Law.(and I do not just mean Sharia in its current limited context of adjudicating on family matters)
that is a fair comment imran but if britain becomes muslim, under sharia law no other religion would be allowed to exist, the koran abrogation states that there is only one god allah, and only one belief islam, no other religion will be tolarated, athiists in particular and gays would be targeted and killed.
Imran, I don’t believe that any poster was suggesting that the issue is a racial one so it’s curious that you construe it as such. The perceived threat is to our western liberal way of life. In a Muslim majority nation how long would homosexuality remain legal? Freedom of speech? Would marriage to 9 year old girls become legal? Would blasphemy become punishable by death? Apostasy? What happens to women’s rights? Would being a rape victim become a crime? I hope that most people agree that the majority of Muslims are tolerant law abiding people but it never seems to be “moderates” who set the agenda or make the laws. Which country is a model of what the UK would become? There are already demands for sharia law and halal meat. Will halal stoning of adulterers or halal killing of apostates follow? Turkey remained a secular state for many decades after being born in a genocide of Christians yet appears to be regressing into the dark ages – that’s after a long period of economic growth. How will the UK get on in a prolonged economic contraction? None of these things are known and a fear of the unknown is entirely natural. The left wing proponents of multiculturalism, besides having a poor grasp of basic logic as evidenced by this tragic article, tend to have a faith in the goodness of people and cultures at odds with available evidence and centuries of history.
Theophobe,
You may find the answer to your questions in ‘The Crusader’s Arms’. Be very afraid,
Mark
Theophobe
Western liberal way of life won’t be a threat if Muslims became the majority in UK. Infact it would be preserved and incorporated into the Islamic System. Look for Eg…India was ruled for over 800 years by Muslims yet Hindu culrure thrived, Hinduism remained the majority in the empire and today it is one the biggest religions of the world. Compare that with entire Europe when Christianity was embraced as the religion of the Roman empire in 325 AD all pagans like Hindus were wiped out, forced to convert and hence paganism which once was the majority religion is now found only in 100s. So who is the real threat then? When western liberals conquered Australia America they didnt preserve anything for the Natives. It’s only a media hyped and over exaggerated bnp ukip facts that portray Islam in the light of other religions especially Christianity.
As far as the threat to liberal way of life is concerned it needs to be backed up by proof and not by exaggerated emotional biased historical Accounts. If Islam was one way of life and as you say it is intolerant to anything “unislamic” why is it that you find so much variations between muslim societies in their ways of living and thinking. It means islam gives socities the freedom to decide democratically to decide how they want to live as long as they don’t violate the Islamic faith.
Now what violates islamic Faith is another argument. For instance does being an alcoholic violate Islamic Law? NO! Since we know many companions of Prophet Muhammad used to drink. Ofcourse it is wrong in the Islamic Faith but if the society decided to allow drinking to those who want it then it’s fine. If a woman doesn’t wear a scarf does it violate the Islamic Law? No! Even though it’s unislamic for an individual to not cover but it’s not the responsibility of the state to enforce it. If a person is homosexual he may remain so and if the society decides to vote to permit it even though it’s unislamic individually then the state doesn’t enforce it. That’s why homosecuals of India were never prosecuted and homosexuals were infact hired to look after the ottomans harems!!
So please don’t be afraid of Islam. Infact I invite you to embrace it as your own. It’s here to stay and it’s not going anywhere. Peace
Imran. I appreciate your participation, but I have to say that you are mixing things up, selectively including/excluding categories of identity and simplifying your examples in a way which is unhelpful.
Why is there ‘such variations between Muslim societies’? Your answer- that ‘Islam gives societies freedom to democratically decide’ is only one possible answer and I would say not the strongest one.
I would say the differences in Muslim societies are more likely because of the contradictions offered by many of the passages of the quran, and messages of the hadith, combined with (‘surviving’ or ‘modified’) pre-Islamic culture of the places, struggling to find expression (and afforded sufficient ‘loopholes’ to do so). That is nowhere near the same as democratic freedom.
Either way it is a debate that I would love to see.
Many identities and ideologies went with the settlers/invaders/emigrants to America and Australia. Simple human material interest (survival) the wish to create a better world and in some cases ideas of racial/cultural supremacy, also travelled within these people, yet it is only the categories of ‘Christian’ and ‘Western liberal’ that you choose to focus on.
Because Hindu culture ‘thrived’ (according to you) in the time that there were Muslim conquerors in (parts of) India may equally evidence that these rulers’ efforts strayed from their religious ideal as much as it may prove they upheld them. Muslim power was never unchallenged, as not all of India was conquered.
Also, if the Muslim rulers supported Hindu culture, it may be argued that they had acted contrary to the teachings of their stated religious ideal. I have previously argued that the legal system derived from the Koran and Sunnah (sharia) unashamedly gives an inherent demographic advantage to Muslims over non-Muslims, which is cumulative down the generations. It may be that these Muslim leaders, who peacefully acquiesced to the ‘thriving of Hindu culture’ were playing the long game, and considered this cumulative demographic bias as sufficient to bring about the ‘destruction of idolatry’ and be establishment of ‘all religion for Allah’.
Only closer analysis would reveal more of the (incomplete) picture.
In this instance, I focus on the category ‘Muslim’, not because it is an incidental aspect of the person’s identity that makes a convenient scapegoat, but because within the teachings themselves are the division of humanity into conflictual components (Muslim and non-Muslim) prescriptions for dominance over the ‘other’ and a political demand that the dominance is undertaken by people themselves as a religious duty. All arguably of course.
If you believe otherwise then I think you have an uphill road in asserting this, once the source material, inferences (and the historical context) is brought to light and debated. Peace (& happiness) to us all. (Though it may be a prescription beyond filling, we live in hope).
Imran,
I am astonished that you should cite the conquest of India – the bloodiest period in human history with at least 80 million killed. To quote Koenraad Elst
“Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter. The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated.”
The scale of slaughter is not in doubt as the invaders proudly boasted of their “success” – accounts corroborated by the survivors. There was no peace and harmony there.
Making comparisons with the historic behaviour of western “Christians” is of no relevance whatever. They appear to have stopped burning witches some time ago and nobody at all is demanding the return of those barbaric practices. Conversely, we are all too familiar with the practices of others.
It’s certainly true that there is considerable variation in laws relating to drink, homosexuality, clothing and women’s rights amongst majority Muslim countries but very few of those are true democracies and the application of barbaric and extreme punishment is commonplace amongst them. I cited the example of Turkey, which is a democracy, as one that is regressing from a secular and relatively liberal culture. By mentioning what “society decides” you are missing the point. Individuals need protection from oppression regardless of whether that oppression is democratically mandated. Sentencing an atheist to death for their views is plain wrong, irrespective of the majority’s views. I don’t believe there is a model for how the UK will turn out when Muslims form a majority and it’s laws, society, economy, etc in a century (or less) cannot be known in advance. Fear of the possibilities is entirely understandable. – i.e. fear of intolerance and its consequences. Fearing the majority of UK based Muslims isn’t, of course, and I hope that they continue to value and sustain the liberal and tolerant society in which they thrive.
We appear to have strayed a little off topic with the “should we care” posts but it’s an important point. As to the topic in the title – 2050 – very unlikely, 2075 – probably. The 3.0 children tells only part of the story as a high proportion marry abroad (particularly those of Pakistani origin), bringing in more “first generation” with their characteristically high birth rates. The entire article is logically flawed but that’s one of the most glaring oversights. A birth rate falling to 2.5 still makes a majority inevitable, regardless of other factors.
I disagree with some of the comments.
Firstly, my reasons for using examples above was to show that when “muslims” conquered lands like India, Egypt, African countries etc, their local cultures, traditions and customs were not only allowed but embraced and incorporated into Islam. Eg when Muslims conquered Greece, Sicily and surrounding Islands Greek philosophies were embracedcand became an integral part of Islamic sciences. For this reason the Modern western civilisation owes it to the muslims for translating Greek philosophies into arabic which thereon were transfered into germanic languages. And thats why famous “muslim” philosophers became well known to the westerner like avacina ibn sina ghazzali farrabi etc etc.
So how is it that Greek philosophies, from which the very idea of liberal democracy emerges, were embraced and learned from by the muslims. Yet if Muslims unrealistically or theoretically were to take over Britain that our British values will be under threat?? Not at all. You are judging by what the media is feeding you with. They are not islamic problems but cultural problems, societal problems. And Islam allows societies the freedom to decide as they democratically see fit.
If variations in muslim societies are due to conflicting verses in the quran I would like to see some evidence for it. For instance in India muslims celebrate death anniversaries as a religious observation which are nowherevto be found outside the region. Which conflicting verse is this due to? Yet it is a known fact that Hindus used to practice this long before the muslims arrived. Indian music with the use of tabla was famous long before muslims came yet all muslim songs are sung with the use of the same instruments long used by the Hindus In their rituals. So is this eliminating their culture or heritage or embracing it?
What the muslim conquerors did in order to take over lands was no different to what all natiins of the world did. It had nothing to do with being a muslim. What the Turks did, what the mongol hordes did, what the Romans did, what the British did and what the Americans do today is nothing different. What is to debate is what hapoens after the new rulers settle in the land and what policy they adopt towards their subject. And there’s no doubt that Muslims were tolerant and also embraced the local value as their own.
So emotional arguments termed with technical tautological statements will not justify weak arguments. Islam is not a threat. Because modern western values, freedom of speech and religion, democracy, secularism within reason are great values and will be embraced by Muslims as their own. That’s how mankind has moved on.
So welcome muslims in your neighbourhoods, embrace them and give them a chance. They are part of this world just as much as anyone, and if they happen to become majority one day in the UK, then rest assured Britush culture will thrive and reach new hieghts. I am proud to be British and proud to be Muslim. And I love you all from the bottom of my heart as this country gave me what no muslim country in the world could give me. Allah preserve UK, Allah preserve the Royal Family and our democratic system that values different opinions and gives them freedom. Amin
Imran. You have me mistaken and I think you are using half-truths to appease the unknowledgeable.
You want a contradiction. Okay- the Quran commands all Muslims to show kindness to their parents (17:23-24), even if they are disbelievers [31:14-15, 29:8, etc.]. On the other hand, it demands not to show any love or friendship to those who oppose Muhammad, even if they are their parents. [58:22] shows it very clearly. 9:23, is a little more obscure, but the essence is the same.
Are Christians ‘people of the book’ to be given a ‘reward from their lord’ (2:62), or are they ‘cursed by god’
The large number of (apparently) contradictory statements is the reason why the practice of ‘abrogation’ developed, where later statements supplant previous ones (but that’s another story). The argument that the statements are ‘taken out of context’ is often quite funny, because even the context often does not diminish the universal nature of the proclamation and sometimes the context makes the implications even worse.
Regarding the Mushrikeen (pagans/polytheists, Trinitarian Christians), is a Muslim to follow (9:5) and slay them, fight them, seize and beleaguer them wherever you find them” (Quran Surah 9:5), or simply to fight them until they pay the Jizya and accept their subjugation (9:29)? Contradiction? Depends on if it is in the interest to fight and seize or simply tax to exploit.
The problem is that as many people on here will only have a passing knowledge of the cornerstones of the Mohammedan (Muslim) religion and even less knowledge of the historical/political backdrop under which these proclamations were shaped, so I have to be incredibly precise. I need to know the exact proclamation, reference, translation in order not to be decried as inflammatory or inaccurate, whereas you only have to make vague misleading pleasantries to reassure the unknowledgeable.
I have many concerns with the Koran and hadiths, including (but not limited to) the following themes:
Animosity towards non-believers (Qur’an Surah 3:28, 3:118, 5:51, 5:55, 8:73, 9:16, 60:13, 9:30)
Apostasy (the giving up of the Mohamm/Muslim faith) whether that be generally (Bukhari 84:57,Bukhari 84:64) (Dawud 38:4346), disputing some aspect of the faith or after fighting against Mohammed (Bukhari Vol.9, Bk 83, Num 37)
Slaughter/subjugation of non-believers (Surah 9:5 or Surah 9:29, (9:73, 9:123)
Inequality; between women and men, and between believers and non-believers (‘Dhimmi’) (39:9, 39:22), and even between categories of non-believers. (2:178, should I say equality amongst slaves, free men and women, but not between these different categories)
Duty of a ‘Muslim’ to enforce “God’s law”( 33:36 for example)
Taqiyya (literally meaning ‘caution’, but actually ‘deceit’ or ‘concealment’- The practice of misrepresenting the Mohamm/Muslim faith when it serves the interest (of the faith), (3:28)
Opposition to Music- (I like my ‘tunes’ good sir)
Family law- which priviledges Muslims and muslim men especially to the end of a demographic advantage. Possibly an appendix to ‘inequality’
The conflation of knowledge (science) with belief (religion)
The ahistoricity of methodology for Muslim traditions in analysing the primary sources.
I would love it if it was simple, but it is not and portraying it as such is not helpful. & don’t get me started on the Sunnah. You really don’t want non-Muslims en-masse understanding what sayings and deeds are attributed to Mohammed (by contemporary Muslim scholars no less).
You said it Imran. This country gave you what no Muslim country could. When Islam’s in the driving seat it’s dysfunctional. You’ll find this out when Muslims are in the majority and you want to go to Australia with the rest of us.
RIP England.
Steve
Thanks for your comments. The reason I said that no muslim country can give me what England/UK has is because it has freedom and equality. I wouldn’t have said this about France for instance.
However muslim countries don’t provide this as they also follow democracy, communism or autocratic ideologies. They don’t have Islamic Systems in Place. The only thing “Islamic” is when they punish the poor for crimes carried out mostly in desperation or lack of knowledge. The clergy has no influence in these countries. The only 2 exceptions are Iran and Saudi Arabia who are not an ideology whom the majority muslims follow. And it is these 2 groups whom have terrorist arms like al qaeda hezbollah isis Etc and both saudi wahabies and Iranian shia are known to be heretical groups. For instance go to wahabithreat.com and you would understandVthe details and you would also be upset that western powers have preferred heretical muslim groups over moderates. The prime example is when the free Syrian army rebelled against bashar al Asad (who is a shia) No western powers supported them. Yet Saudis took the opportunity and funded jahbat al nusra (wahabi group) which started killing wholesale.
Majority of muslims are moderates whom are referred to as Sufis by shias and wahhabis. And you must differentiate between us and minority heretics. Go ahead and research for yourself. This issue is being identified slowly all over the west. Recently there were protests against wahhabi Islam in Germany NOT AGAINST ISLAM!
I agree that if these heretical groups come in power like Saudis isis Iranians etc yes I will be going to Australia lolz
So please everyone Muslims are not a threat. They are peaceful and followers of a peaceful religion. I pray that God opens your hearts to the truth and grants UK and it’s people continuous peace, stability and seniority over the world.
“Oh Muhammad, We (God) have not sent you but as a MERCY to mankind ”
Verse from the holy quran
Theophobe, when u use the fanatical Hindutva convert & revisionist apologist Koenraad Elst, with his lack of academic credentials, I am afraid, that I could not avoid a loud guffaw, spluttering my tea!
You’re right, the UK won’t be a Muslim-majority country by 2050. It will be by 2100.
They are just counting the immigrant and birth rate,we have to look at the rate that on what ration non muslim converting to Islam. n 2011 it was reported that the United Kingdom had around 100,000 converts to Islam, 40,000 more than in 2001;[4] 66% of them were women. There were an estimated 5,200 conversions to Islam in 2011.it mean each year the new muslim ration is increasing by 40%.
Moderator.
Why have you decided not to show my last comment?
Are you excluding inconvenient facts as described in this weeks report by Trevor Phillips?
Tomessy
Have
It seems that the estimation of the annual increase of muslims on the UK in more recent years is 6.7 percent, resulting in a doubling every 10 years.
This is a culture and religion which, wherever it has the upper hand, has demonstrated by its laws and actions, a relentless suppression of those who do not accept their way of life. Its followers frequently consider it their duty to kill those who oppose their efforts to enforce belief in Allah. Muslim governments nearly always ” look the other way” when their populations kill Christians and followers of other religions, or blasphemers in the name of Allah.
Listening to their rhetoric you would believe that their religion is peaceful but I am reminded of Matthew 7:20 “By their fruits shall ye know them” referring to “false prophets” and by this principle, it is clear that Islam is a violent oppressive doctrine, which demands the killing of; apostates, those who try to convert Muslims , and anybody who opposes their vile beliefs or criticises the Koran or Mohammed. So where is the peace?
Where the are in the minority they still use violence to seek to silence criticism through their extremist militants with little outrage by their followers.
Recent events broadcast in the last few weeks confirm the violent nature of Islam towards their own nationals who step outside accepted behaviour.
What can our society do to prevent this ?
We cannot sleepwalk into dominance by Islam.
A whitewash as expected by Channel 4’s ‘fact ‘ check.
All pertinent statistics sawed and shaved to fit their obfuscation agenda.
Less than 10% is clearly way off the mark. More likely 25% or more.
As a time traveller I can tell you the the Uk becomes a majoritu muslim country in the year 2047 – sharia becomes law for all uk citizens in 2053. By this time most of the elite have left for eastern europe – europe itself collapses in 2061 in a muslim war affecting every country in the world. There will never be peace witrh muslims so act now.
Most likely I would say, however, the stats don’t take into account the fed up, skilled working, native British people who are emigrating and will continue to do so as long as our politicians fail us. Give the muslims Britain….. .we the people shall go elsewhere – by 2080 they’ll be banging on our door again begging for western medicine to heal their dysentery, western food to feed their children and western education to teach their inbred cyclops. Turd world people should stay in their own turd world countries….! Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day, give a man a fishing rod and he can trade it for arms or narcotics and ask the western man for another fish the next day.
This evidence is completely useless as you did not take immigration into account. I would suggest you to take your own advice with checking facts.
What we do in our group of churches is we encourage the Pastors to pray for Muslims all 30 days of their Ramdan, Also Day 26, is the Night of Power where they believe to see dreams and visions and I must say that they do see Jesus and there are many testimonies to this.
Many have come to the faith through the life of other Christians, their Dreams/Visions about Jesus, and out of their genuine search for God. There is a great wave of the gospel in Muslim countries and they are going through more persecution, more than Christians in their own countries.
it’s like I’ll give you an example…… There is something not right which your Dad is doing, you may be ok to confront him but when someone else does it, you will definitely defend him. This is how it happens, they themselves are chained in many aspects but they will only defend them.
Even if you argue on the basis of humanitarian grounds or doctrine or even the truth – the word of God, they will not get it right because they are closed, that is what the word of God says; their eyes are closed!! So you cannot argue nor you can reason!! It will become a hate war between you friends!
Finally Jesus is their Saviour not “We”, we are only his instruments through which the love can flow!
As we light a path for others, we naturally light our own way.
“FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.”
For someone who supposedly knows about statistics this is a ridiculous statement. I only wish I could make that bet with him, but I’m sure he would never dare put his money where his mouth is. Even the original article by Vincent Cooper – which Patrick Worrall attempts to discredit with an incomplete analysis of facts and misleading logic – omits a number of points which makes it probable that Muslims will become a majority even sooner than VC predicts. And, if the inevitable civil war comes later (after 2040) rather than sooner, the chances of the Muslims triumphing over the native British people is much higher.
Here are the reasons pointing to an even earlier Muslim majority than predicted by Vincent Cooper…
1) A continuing, and accelerating rate of emigration by white British partly as a result of Muslims aggressively asserting their cultural and political demands, and thus white British people feeling their country is lost forever.
2) The increase in the number of young muslims means an increase in the number of imported muslim marriage partners, many of them arranged/sham marriages for which the overseas muslim family are surely prepared to pay $$$$$. Whats a British passport worth in Pakistan, Bangladesh, hum..?
3) An increase in the number of male muslims marrying white British women and then insisting she converts or, at the very least, the children all become muslims.
4) An increase in the number of white British converts through “fashion” or intimidation, eg., “Stockholm Syndrome”.
5) Last but not least, even if a Muslim majority is not achieved by 2050 – the more important thing is that YOUNG muslims (and men of fighting age) will outnumber young white British well before then.
i disagree with some of the comments . Muslims are innocents . we aren’t converting to Islam any persons without permission. we have many good responsibilities for the world we are doing that . British peoples are interested to join with Muslims. i read all comments i conformed all Christians avoiding Muslims.so pls SHUT UP
<3 u allah
No, you’re just brainwashing people instead. The naive, most narrow-minded collective I have ever known. Earth is not just for Islam. Learn to be open-minded, bigot.
We will multiply and take over thos country and every other eventually!
the muslims say there holy books are full of peace. this is untrue, whilst there are some peacful chapters, ther are also nasty bits like saying unbelievers will burn in hell its just as bad as the old testament, you gan take your pick, as an ex service man over 80 i was appalled to here of some fanatics burning our poppies on remembrance day, those idiots ar not very intelligent, because if we hadent beat the natzies they just wouldent be here enjoying our benifit system. and at any rate, the muslims in the east seem to blow each other to bits more than any british service man ever did te muslim laws are all for men, women just exsist. to have
How’s that reducing birth rate and immigration coming along?
Atheism leaves a man no hope. A world without hope is a doomed place.
Christianity is a religion of hope, it teaches that God forgives each sinner who is in search for the righteous way, leading to God. We learn from our mistakes and through the search we change and develop personally and as society. “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” For Christians a personal journey to God is the most valuable gift.
Contrary, Islam is a religion where man must obey, not ask questions, as all he is supposed to know has ALREADY been written in Quran. And if one doesn’t obey unconditionally, he’ll be stoned. “The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger … will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.”
That’s the pivotal point of fight that’s going on throughout the world today.
A few points:
1. Vincent Cooper’s prediction relies on the notion of the entire non-Muslim population (Not just the White British) declining dramatically over the next few decades.
Given that the overall non-Muslim population INCREASED by about 3 million (Check the 2011 census), I’d say this alone debunks his predication.
2. With certain benefits being limited to two children (e.g child tax credits) and child benefit standing a good chance of getting a two child cap, can high fertility rates really be said to be sustainable?
3. The comments about the British converting en masse to Islam are just nonsense, up to half of converts leave Islam with a few years:
http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2013/05/confessions-ex-muslim
Yes, the non-Muslim population of Britain has increased in recent years. But that is down largely to EU migrants.
The point of the article is that the long-term population trend is below replacement level for the indigenous non-Muslim population and way above replacement level for the Muslim population.
Furthermore, changes to welfare entitlements for children are hardly likely to limit Muslim birth rates.
Polygamy in everything but name is a growing cultural force in Britain’s Muslim community ( the latest report has Muslim polygamous “marriages” in Britain at over 40 thousand), thereby allowing on man to have several child-producing wives which he can bring to Britain from abroad.
Muslim immigration to Britain tends to be of the poor and from the lower social strata. High birth rates among these groups will likely continue long into the future.
i dont honestly think that muslims can take over the world. in britain alone there are more agnostics than christians, i cant see a non church going agnostic, swapping his life to praying umpteen times a day, to a religion that still throws stones at the devil, a backward middle ages religion where women have no real say, allthe modern drugs i can think of were discoverd in the west, and helped to save muslims in backward countries, the arab rich muslims of arabia,dont seem to want to help there unfortunate bretheren, ita always the west that are the first on the scene in a disaster,the muslim countries will never improve, until in stead of praying, get inventing.
“Yes, the non-Muslim population of Britain has increased in recent years. But that is down largely to EU migrants.
The point of the article is that the long-term population trend is below replacement level for the indigenous non-Muslim population and way above replacement level for the Muslim population.”
The non-Muslim migrants will also have children. And given the rapid growth of the mixed race population and as well as delayed childbearing (which causes fertility to be underestimated), it’s clear that the overall non-Muslim population is growing naturally as well as through immigration.
“Furthermore, changes to welfare entitlements for children are hardly likely to limit Muslim birth rates.”
Are you seriously suggesting that removing financial incentive to breed is not going to reduce fertility rates?
Please bear in mind that fertility rates in the Islamic world have PLUMETTED in the last few decades, they’re nowhere near as impregnable as you think:
https://www.aei.org/publication/the-islamic-worlds-quiet-revolution/
“Muslim immigration to Britain tends to be of the poor and from the lower social strata. High birth rates among these groups will likely continue long into the future.”
That certainly was the case under the moronic immigration system we had under Labour, but given that we now have a points system for non-EU migrants as well as stiff salary requirements for family reunification, that’s not going to be the case forever.
Also, the very beneficial and increasingly likely Brexit will also play a part….
All this proves is that non white immigration in general has to stop.
I recall seeing the graph by Mr Cooper on Facebook…funnily enough…it has been deleted!! One of the clear messages that you haven’t dealt with in your report is this…for a “civilization” to survive the inhabitants must have a birth rate of 1.8% or more…in Europe that rate has already dropped to 1.2% …I forget now the rate at which Muslims are multiplying but it is far greater than 1.8%…which is what caused the concern in the first place.
They certainly don’t use any kind of contraceptives…and they are fleeing every war torn country they come into contact with. The Fanatics stay and fight. Those with children flee…but those children grow up to be Fanatics! !
I cannot imagine the heartbreak that those parents who just want their children to be able to grow up safely must go through…but…and it is a big but…so many men particularly become Fanatical…helped along by idiots already allowed to stay in this country…
Close our borders…it’s the only answer…or we become more like Australia…we settle immigrants on an island…and then put them through rigorous controls. If you have no viable skills you don’t get a visa. If you do have viable skills…you don’t get access to our Benefit System for 2 years! You need to be able to support yourself!
What turns my stomach is that we have 1 million plus indigenous homeless people in this country .already…Why are we helping others when we don’t even help our own!! !!!
I met a Muslim convert back in 1999 and he was quite proud that Muslims would eventually out breed the White British.
I went out with a Muslim girl for 8 years (She was not religious at first, but when she wanted/demanded me to convert we split) Also, I have many Muslim friends, and from my experiences whether their intention is malign or benign they all want to see Islam eventually dominate the West.
This is all done rather covertly, through the Islamic concepts of ‘Kitman’ and taqiya, in other words stealth and deceit, which is permissible in the west or ‘Dar Al Harb’ (The Abode of War)
Yes he is wrong about that, it will be sooner.. God help us.
i am old enough to remember the pre war years 39 45 and all through the war years vividly rememberd, as a child in sheffield we were bombed out,there were good germans, but even they had to kow tow to the fanaticle nazis ever on the rise, i fear the same could happen in the uk, with the muslim counterparts, if the militant numbers grow,and thy always do, the peace loving muslims will have to watch what they say, as once power is gained, and sharia law imposed as it is in all muslim dominated lands,a rule of terror would happen and violence would be inflicted on non believers who wants to return to the middle ages not me..
The following link shows some of the Muslim Council of Britain’s (MCB’s) analysis of the 2011 consensus.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/11/muslim-population-england-wales-nearly-doubles-10-years
For the 16-24 year old age group, they are shown as making up 6.2 % of the national population (of 16-24 year olds)
For the 0-4 year old age group, they are shown as making up 9.1% of the national population (of 0-4 year olds).
From those statistics I would expect that they are now already over 10% in the 0-4 year old category. So I’m not sure what FactCheck was expecting to happen to stop them growing up and breaking the 10% of total population ceiling that it seems to think is in place.
if the muslim religion brought benifits to britain i wouldnt worry too much, but it dosent,the muslim religon is too draconian, and if examined closely, falls down, with conrtradictions, it has like a lot of other the hall mark of being made up,it has abrogations, where it has been changed with newer passages, and is more barbaric with no forgivness or pity for infidels it is an insult to the creater,most religions are of mans creating, when some one said god spoke to them, or in a dream, and all the world is called on to believe it, god puts everything into you that you need to know via concience and feelings to do the right thing, certainly not written words.
Fact Check you clearly underestimate and are wrong about the situation and that the date at which Muslims become the majority is irrelevant anyway. The facts currently state they absolutely will and at some point within the next 100 years unless something is done to stop it from happening.
The question is what will be the consequences and does something have to be done? Are the seeds of the next Holocaust being sown?
I am currently 60 and so I am not sure I need be bothered but if I were 15 then maybe.
I believe something does need to be done but that the answer lies with the Muslims and not the mainly Christian population. To avoid a Holocaust or massive civil war in the future the current British Muslims have to do something. They need to be seen to become more British and must modify their culture and beliefs to be more in tune and in keeping with Christianity in our country. That for example is why the wearing of the Niqab and Burka is so disliked by many non Muslims. It’s a statement of defiance and intent which does not help.
Who is Fact Check anyway?
However, the latest census in Britain has vindicated those concerned about Muslim demographics. Even the ultra-far leftists of the Guardian had to admit that Muslim numbers almost doubled in ten years from 2001 – 2011, and that trend is vastly accelerating as age distribution clearly shows, so that Muslim numbers will more than double as we advance from here:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/11/muslim-population-england-wales-nearly-doubles-10-years
A projection of Muslim numbers in Britain based on the census findings might well look something like this:
2020 – 7 million
2030 – 15 million
2040 – 33 million
2050 – 70 million
9/11/14,26/3/15
Ben
I agree your forecast.
My comments 9/Nov 2014 and 26 Mar 2015 support this.
The trend of nearly doubling each decade has been persistent over the last 50 years, and appears to be increasing as you say.
It is sad that nobody appears to be able to express the danger to the traditional UK way of life or to propose a way to avoid this.
I am afraid that the point made by Duncan, that the Muslims themselves find a solution is wishful thinking, as the nature of Islam requires a constant struggle to advance the religion. To do what Duncan hopes for would require Muslims to abandon Islam.
The trend of Muslim increase in the UK population is indisputable: 50,000 in 1960,
3,000,000 at the last census,
probably over 4,500,000 at present.
Their numbers are increasing at about 200,000 per annum, but this will increase due to the effect of compounding, and can only lead to a majority of Muslims within the lifetime of most of our population.
( If we let in large numbers from the mass exodus from many parts of the world, this will exacerbate the problem )
The problem we have to solve is : “what are we going to do to prevent our indigenous culture being replaced by this foreign religion which is incompatible with our way of life”.
If the answer is
1) nothing, except continual complaining about it, we are doomed
OR
2) do something to reverse the trend, there may be some hope.
There doesn’t seem to be a third choice.
If their numbers become a real threat to us the likelihood is going to be outright civil commotion at sometime in the future. This is not something we should allow to happen.
As a people it is our responsibility to our children and grandchildren to act now to prevent this ever occurring.
This really makes o difference and is a pintless exercise. Firstly; There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. Even if only 10% are Islamist/Jihadists that makes a dynamic of 160 million people. Passively supported (ie not objected to) by the remaing 1.4 billion. Secondly its not numbers that count; to quote;
“One such is that a land that falls under Muslim rule, even briefly, can never again be ceded to non-Muslims.
What matters in Islam is control of a land’s government, even if the majority of inhabitants are non-Muslims .
“[http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6263/khamenei-israel-palestine]
These are the real facts:
1961. 50,000
1971. 226,000
1981. 553,000
1991. 950,000
2001. 1.6m
2011. 2.7m
Facts on Increase
1971. Increase 4.5x
1981. Increase 2.4x
1991. Increase 1.71x
2001. Increase 1.68x
2011. Increase 1.68x
1961-2011 – 54 fold increase.
Let’s take the average increase in the Moslim population over the last 30 years – 70% increase per decade – and run this stable 30 year average forward:
2011 2.7m
2021 4.59m
2031 7.8m
2041 13.2m
2051 22.5m
2061 38m
All this while the local population reduces.
Hugh
Just a tiny niggling point. The figures you quote are for England and Wales.
Scotland and NI figures are not readily accessible, so I would estimate UK figures to be approximately 10% higher.
Considering that 60 % of Muslim married abroad, the fertility rate is 4.9 * 1.6 = 7.8 that is a doubling every 10 years.
In Bandgaesh, it is reduced because population growth from 30m to 200m in 100 years end up with a ressource problem as they have no country to invide nearby. They tries Birma. The Buddhist monk reacts.
With the welfare subvention, muslim are no economic restraint on their birth rate.
their religion is either jihad or doing children which is both case is an invasion.
There will not be a Muslim majority because Muslims will have wrecked the country ( as they did in their countries ) and they will leave .