FactCheck: Who loses if Scotland goes it alone?
“Being part of the United Kingdom is good for Scotland, and Scotland being part of the United Kingdom is good for the rest of the United Kingdom.”
David Cameron, May 11 2011
The background
With Alex Salmond’s SNP winning a majority in the devolved parliament for the first time last week, Scottish independence is firmly back on the political agenda.
There will be a referendum on the issue within five years, although Mr Salmond now says that will happen towards the end of his term as First Minister.
That could have something to do with a lack of clear support for a break from the United Kingdom among Scots. A new YouGov poll for the Sun found that only 29 per cent back independence – as opposed to 41 per cent of adults in England and Wales.
That’s been interpreted as a reflection of the belief in the rest of the UK that Scotland is being subsidised by taxpayers further south.
Mr Cameron promised this week to make an “uplifting and optimistic case of why we are better off together”.
But with people on both sides of the border apparently believing they would benefit economically from the dissolution of the Union, do the facts support Mr Cameron’s case for holding it together?
The analysis
The Government Expenditure and Review Scotland (GERS) calculates how much money is raised through taxes in Scotland and the level of public spending north of the border.
While the figures are not universally accepted, particularly by Scottish nationalists, criticism of GERS has been more muted in recent years, and many economists consider them to be fairly trustworthy.
The latest GERS figures, for the financial year 2008/09, show that the Treasury spent about £54 billion on Scotland and only received £43.5 billion in revenue.
The latest Treasury figures on total central Government expenditure on public services show that for the last decade, central Government has shelled out about £1,000 a year more on the average person in Scotland than in England.
In 2010/11 the projection is that the per capita spend will be £5,795 in England and £6,833 in Scotland. So that appears to vindicate those 41 per cent of disgruntled non-Scots who think their neighbours are doing disproportionately well from the Union.
It’s at this point that the most contentious factor in the whole debate rears its ugly head: North Sea oil.
Most of the United Kingdom’s fossil fuel lies off the coast of Scotland and so the wealth they generate should arguably be added to figures for total revenue from Scotland.
That raises a whole string of important questions: do those natural riches really “belong” to Scotland or the whole of the UK? And would they just be handed over to the government of an independent Scotland?
Detailed research of the money brought in by the UK oil and gas fields suggests that Scottish waters – defined by the line of demarcation used in the fishing industry – accounted for 91.1 per cent of UK North Sea revenue in 2008/09.
If calculations are made on the basis that those assets are Scottish rather than British, they increase Scotland’s contribution to Treasury coffers by £11.7 billion, wiping out the £10.5bn deficit and leaving Scotland in the black to the tune of £1.3bn.
This figure was seized upon with some glee by nationalists when it first emerged, but some economists are preaching caution.
Professor David Bell, an expert on the Scottish economy at the University of Stirling, said: “If the price were to collapse it would mean the difference between a big surplus and a deficit. You can predict volatility in output but that’s quite different from a volatile price.”
In fact, GERS figures show that, largely thanks to big fluctuations in the price of oil, the last 30 years have seen wild variations in the amount of money generated by North Sea oil for the UK.
The figures range from lows of just over £1 billion in the early 1990s to a high of nearly £13 billion in – you’ve guessed it – 2008/09, the year of the much-quoted budget surplus for Scotland.
It would appear that the SNP may be on shaky ground if it is banking on high oil prices to safeguard Scotland’s economy, though some academics like Professor Mike Danson of the University of the West of Scotland disagree.
He told FactCheck: “All the expectations are that we are now past peak oil, so the world is now using more oil than it is discovering each year, and therefore the price will go up. That suggests that it is a firm foundation in terms of future revenue.”
And even if Scotland’s economy were to run at a deficit, that’s far from a sign of impending economic disaster, he added, saying: “Name a country in the world without a surplus. If you look at other comparable small countries, Scotland’s deficit doesn’t look unusual. It’s the scale of national debt in the UK as a whole that stands out as being quite peculiar.”
For Professor Brian Ashcroft of the University of Strathclyde, it’s precisely the question of what contribution Scotland would be expected to make to the UK budget deficit that is the key issue.
Prof Ashcroft says he is personally in favour of the Union but believes there is no question an independent Scotland could survive. But he thinks the rest of the UK would expect a breakaway state to shoulder considerable responsibility for bailing out Scottish banks like HBOS and RBS during the financial crisis.
That raises the controversial question of whether an independent Scotland would have kept afloat if it had had to cope with the 2008 financial crisis alone, he added.
“It’s almost certain that Scotland would survive as one nation and have reasonable performance, but whether it would be well-placed to cope with significant shocks like the major financial crisis we saw is another thing.”
Prof Ashcroft also suggests that England could do badly as a result of independence for Scotland, and not just because of a shortfall in oil revenue.
Loss of the North Sea oilfields would mean George Osborne would never be able to reap the benefit of a windfall tax on the North Sea operators like the one introduced in the last Budget.
Most of the UK’s renewable energy resources like sites for wind and wave power stations are in Scotland, so the potential market for exported electricity would be out of Whitehall’s hands.
And there could be less tangible drawbacks like a loss of prestige on the world stage for a shrunken UK.
Prof Ashcroft said: “There are significant unknowns, but it would be wrong for people in England to think: ‘Oh well, we’ll just get rid of the Scots because of the subsidy, then we’ll be better off.’
“It isn’t necessarily the case that either Scotland or England would be better off by separation. Both could be worse off.”
The verdict
None of the economists FactCheck contacted thought there was a serious risk of an independent Scotland failing to survive.
As David Cameron signalled this week, Unionists need to move past “threats or by saying that small countries can’t make it”.
Control of North Sea oil has been a constant refrain for the SNP, but our experts think it may be a mistake either to bank on oil or to assume that an independent Scotland would fail without it.
The latest opinion polls mean Mr Cameron may have a harder job convincing English and Welsh voters that they need Scotland, despite analysis that shows that the contribution Scotland makes to the rest of the UK has been underestimated.
By Patrick Worrall



There are 148 comments on this post
My instinct is that Scotland loses. England will be better off economically thorough not having to support or subsidise the Scots. And it would be nice to get Scottish MP’s out of Westminster. Don’t forget, we’d have been spared Gordon Brown if the Scots were independent already…!
But independence is actually a really silly idea. We all inhabit the same lump of rock. It is much better that we try to get on with each other and be stronger collectively, rather than revert to ancient tribal identities…
The sooner the Scots have the referendum, and the silent majority decisively reject the idea, the better…!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
So I assume you would back giving Northern Ireland back to the Irish as they inhabit the same bit of rock?
I’m starting to think it might be a good idea to break up the union, it might give Westminster politicians some sense of reality about where we stand in the world instead of constantly trying to ‘punch above our weight’ at vast cost.
Perhaps Etonians don’t get the boxing analogy where 99.9% of fighters who try to box above their weight, get beaten.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
England itself is too big to be properly prosperous. The Tory government – and the Labour predecessors have made it plain that they see themselves as the guardians of the City of London and the SE of england, at the expense of everywhere else. That cannot be sustained. So once Scotland, then Wales and NI secede, England will have only one option – devolution to the regions – or it will be balkanised.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I think the scottish are too concerned with hateing the english to really see the isssues they get a lot of money from westminster and if they want to be independent let them seven years of liveind in the north of scotland taught me how narrow minded they are
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Would be nice to to get constant news reports for London all time . Make Scotland a nice wee tax haven and hub for world business. Create energy farms, sea and wind and away we go.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Have you any idea how offensive your questions are. The Scots have defended Britain to the the tune of twice the casualry level of Englands since the Union and you ask if we can defend ourselves?
And we won’t be invading Iraq and the like!!! WE have nothing to lose!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Ray,
You should read more widely.Gordon Brown was actually widely accredited by non UK sources (Independent? see the Head of IMF for example)as the saviour of the western world with his rescue plan. He inhereted a system in place for decades and before we propose he change it since Labour were in government for such a long time, read a little bit more on the legislative process in the country.
I much prefer to rest of the FACTS – The personal wealth of every household in the UK exceeds that of Scotland by a huge amount. How so? Property prices are higher in some counties but certainy not all?
So, yes let’s discuss the national debt but let’s also have a reckoning for money salted away over time by the ‘upper class’.
Perhaps the conduct of the Tory govt. in the 70′s ,when independence was feared a reality, gives a clue to the real relationship at present. A top secret cabinet meeting where they redrew the teriterritorial waters. (revealed after the 25 year rule – see Daily Record for detail)ly!. Negotiated sharing of assets? not for the toffs apparently!
That outlook ties in with many of the comments here , which show the undercurrent of English NATIONAL (I…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Shut up you total idiot
Like or Dislike:
0
0
can i just ask what is the percentage of scots working in the public sector in scotland.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Independence will be the making of Scotland; reliance upon apron strings hasn’t done them any favours. If as you say and it is widely thought, that Scotland benefits and England would be better off if Independence happens, why don’t we let them get on with it? Is English nerves starting to jangle perhaps? The oil does belong to Scotland but so does a lot of national debt! Lets face it, we are so much better off as a nation, not necessarily financially. As a nation, the UK, we have achieved great things together the scots and english; stay together I say.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Professor Mike Danson, specialist in regional economics and policy development at the University of the West of Scotland said:
“All the expectations are that we are now past peak oil, so the world is now using more oil than it is discovering each year, and therefore the price will go up. That suggests that it is a firm foundation in terms of future revenue.”
So, in other words, because our one big asset has almost run out, we can use it as a foundation for our future economy.
To make matters worse, oil consumption is growing exponentially, which means even though there is more in the ground than we have used in all of history so far, we will consume it in a fraction of the time.
The frightening thing is, the man who said this is a Professor of Economics. His difficulty grasping some pretty basic elements of mathematics and logic is staggering.
Fail.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
No, fail on your behalf for not understanding supply and demand economics.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
No, fail for everyone, peak oil relates to the refining of and not production. In fact while we have discovered more than ever we can no longer produce refined oil at the rate required why, cause we keep shutting refineries. Because the threat of supply/demand economics will increase the price making non middle eastern sources economically viable. Scotland on its own? Our success has been part of the uk never alone. Become independent join europe? Omg how illogical, how irrational, where does such ignorance come from, centuries old bigotry and hatred, sponsored by forces in europe to this day!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Ellie you seem to have done maths at school but you seem to have missed logic and economics – the less of oil there is, the more expensive it gets. Meaning that because we are now past peak oil – more is getting used than is being extracted, therefore, Scotland is only going to get more and more money from it, if those in charge are sensible (we have seen that westminster are not) and reinvest the money wisely in renewables (of which we have something like a quarter of europes resources – thats loads by the way) and other sources scotland could absoloutely stand by itself.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
There’s still 100 years of it and we are developing new stuff all the time.
Not having to pay for punching above our weight, and saving at lest £1.5 billion a year will help!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I would have thought the equation was simple – if Cameron and Osborne want Scotland to stay, Scotland must be a contrubutor not a drain on the British economy.
The sad thing for Scotland is that it will probably achieve independence several years after the English have had the best of its oil income.
As to the banks, I don’t think we can assign a ‘home’ country to any of them. They are only interested in themselves and will squat in whichever land offers them the least regulation.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
The problem with the argument is that the boundary would not follow the lines set out for fisheries which are set for administrative purposes by the UK Government for UK purposes; rather they would be probably be established according to International Conventions and a number of factors would apply –
1. The territorial and contiguous zones would apply – and the exclusive economic zones would extend only as far as the law permits – to include continential shelf rights for example – although no further than half way to Norway or Iceland (for example).
2. The line between what would be ‘new Scottish’ and what would be ‘new UK’ waters could follow the existing UK legislation – but I have real doubts that that would be the case. Surely, the ‘new UK’ Government would argue that the UNCLOS should apply with the relevant Continental shelf extensions. My understanding that if this were done the reserves would fall roughly half in ‘new Scottish’ and half in ‘new UK’ waters.
The incentive to place waters under Scottish legal jurisdiction within the UK is to simplfy the process of legal control and decision making. That incentive disappears with the break up of the…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
The bit that is missed is that the UK borrows £141 billion this year as it is not paying it’s own way despite the oil revenues. Scotland’s share of this deficit is £12 billion which seems similar to the figure u give. Interestingly the Labour controlled Scottish Office a year and a half ago gave a figure of 3.8billion deficit and then Labour politicians used it to scare people. But that leaves us better off with 8.2 billion less deficit. Any when we add in oil (as the UK does with it’s sums) we are in surplus of over a billion. And that from UK rooted deficit
Like or Dislike:
0
0
but what happens when england removes subs from faslane,stops building ships in scottish shipyards,and removes anything english taxpayers money is put into.all scottish service personell would have to leave england and be paid by the scottish taxpayer,an exchange of uni students would happen…scots ones in england being sent back to scottish uni’s and english students returning to english uni’s…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I believe the international boundary for oceans is twelve miles off shore. Presumably that would be the standard which would apply. As for oil the sooner we all convert to renewable green energy sources the better.
I believe the wide scale conversion to solar power would benefit England if separation did take place and also if oil prices continue to rise. We would be less dependant on North Sea oil and gas.Electricity would be much less expensive and we may even be able to run our cars on it. Perhaps then the Union might survive more equitably.
We would also be doing more to save the planet. It would appear to be a win win situation.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Barbara – you are correct about the 12 Miles territorial waters but the issue here is the Exclusive Economic Zone out to 200 miles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone
Like or Dislike:
0
0
There lies the problem. You cannot argue the 12 mile territorial zone, but you can argue the rest of the waters. For instance 200 miles north of Berwick on Tweed takes into consideration some of the oil fields. This zone would be seen as both English and Scottish. And Yes, the same would be said for 200 miles south of the Scottish Boarders. Then there’s oil fields in international waters.
A mine field, and plenty to be argued about.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I’m English but in favour of Scottish independence not because i believe it’s a drain on the UK but because a smaller England would, hopefully, be less inclined to delude itself that it’s a great power and concentrate instead on trying to develop a decent economy; secondly scotland is a more socially democratic country and it could be good for England to have the example of a hopefully successful social democracy on our doorstep; thirdly it would stop the anomaly of Scottish MPs voting in westminster but not the other way round
Like or Dislike:
0
0
“It’s almost certain that Scotland would survive as one nation and have reasonable performance, but whether it would be well-placed to cope with significant shocks like the major financial crisis we saw is another thing.”….
A “reasonable performance” and “Survival” isn’t much of an ambition, and the “another thing” is all too possible.
If Scotland had large enterprises based within its borders (like the banks), any collapse of that sector would be ruinous for the economy, and surviving on a reasonable performance isn’t worth the risk, IMO, in fact I agree with the comment by Ray Turner.
“We all inhabit the same lump of rock. It is much better that we try to get on with each other and be stronger collectively, rather than revert to ancient tribal identities…
The sooner the Scots have the referendum, and the silent majority decisively reject the idea, the better…!”.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
There are no European countries that are ‘independent’. Nor any but the poorest that could ever claim to be ‘independent’ either. For the time being Somalia has independence of a sort: it has no effective government either.
What many Scots are seeking is ‘separation’ and the emotional feeling that Scotland is no longer subject to decision making in far-off London. That’s whether by Banks, or Big Business or HM Government.
Whether this minority held view can be galvanised into such an over-whelming majority that the Scottish nay-sayers will acquiesce is not known.
As an example: the Bloc Quebecois has been trying since 1961 to persuade French speakers to vote for separation – but they won’t.
Maybe that’s Scotland’s fate too? Perpetual blethering and never making the decisive break …
Like or Dislike:
0
0
There is something else which has not been added to the equation. With full fiscal autonomy comes the freedom to attract business to Scotland through reductions in corporation tax. Also Alex Salmond would be investing heavily in renewable energy and wants to upgrade the national grid in Scotland to allow for better export of our surplus. Under their plans Scotland will be powered entirely by renewables.
Also our share of the national debt is 12% which has been included in the figures, but what is not mentioned is the fact that not all the money allocated to Scotland is spent in Scotland. For example our allocation for spending on armed forces is 2.8 billion but only 2billion is actually spent in Scotland. Would like to know where else this holds true.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Unfortunately the EU is now moving away from allowing small States like Ireland to undermine the big States (i.e., Germany) by making low offers on Corporation Taxes. Despite Salmond’s promises to his Big Business backers, we’ll never be an independent in those matters.
Currently, my own renewable energy machine is subsidised by millions of householders throughout the UK. I can’t see that continuing if Scotland goes into renewables big-time. We can’t afford lots of renewables by ourselves.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I agree completely that Scotland would be risking far too much on completely taking over North Sea oil. If there is a race to the bottom to secure the deal, then the only people who are going to profit will be the oil companies.
Ian Fraser says a similar thing here: http://www.qfinance.com/blogs/ian-fraser/2011/06/21/salmond-dreams-scotland-can-become-a-celtic-lion-but-will-it-work.
From what this article (the Cathy Newman one above, not the Ian Fraser one) says, I think Cameron knows that he may lose strength without the union, so perhaps he should try harder.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
So the only people to benefit would be the oil companies? Dubious assertion but certainly bolstered by the UK government strategy in managing the oil – the Norwegians think we are a joke. I think you will find Statoil is a great big nationalised success!!!
And yes Cameron and the Unionists will certainly ‘lose strength’- they won’t be able to invade other countries willy nilly as though they could afford it! And I note no one ever mentionds the saving in defence spending Scotland will enjoy!
We don’t want to be the 4th or 5th biggest spenders on the planet. Do you?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
No need for anyone to try harder to keep Scotland in the Union. Many Scots have heard these arguments for fifty years or more. A few want that feeling of separation, and others prefer the strength of being within a larger & friendly State. It’s essentially an emotional matter rather than a rational one.
One element is clear. All the comparable small States in Europe have to levy higher taxes than the UK. Which is a hard argument to beat!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
All the comparable small States in Europe have to levy higher taxes than the UK. Which is a hard argument to beat!———–really ?—-but you leave out they all have higher standards of living
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Hello Turner Donaldson, You’ll have heard by now of the SNP’s accurate observation that Scotland enjoys an average income per head that is the sixth highest in the world, and greater than that of the remainder of the UK. Only the London & SE regions of England have higher incomes. But those English regions have much higher cost-of-living too.
I can add that our income advantage over the England averages has been recorded since at least the 1950s. [we usually compare ourselves to London - not the whole UK].
Scotland therefore does have a much HIGHER average ‘standard of living’ than most comparable States in Europe, and we enjoy the benefit of the efficiencies that arises because we share our costs amongst 62 million UK people.
[we also have greater inequalities here, ... But that's a different issue]
Best of both!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
What taxes in particular are you talking about? Generally the level of tax is set to meet the budget for the countries spending, income tax may be higher, but VAT may be lower. In many countries they pay much higher tax on alcohol, but much lower tax on petrol or cigarettes.
If the surplus figures quoted above are to be believed and Scotland will have a budget surplus, then it is perfectly plausible that taxes (income tax, VAT, fuel duty etc..) may reduce on a whole, and leave the average Scot with more of their own money to do with as they please.
If they don’t reduce taxes the new Scottish government can use the surplus to create more jobs and in doing so both reduce their expenditure on welfare and social payments and have additional workforce to make even more income tax profits on.
Win, win situation if there ever was one!
KB
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Re the matter of economic sustainabilty and the Barnet formula where circa 8bn is alleged unfairly weighted in Scotland’s favour. Yet the GVA of Scotland excludng oil is one of the highest in the UK. Substantially more than the 1,500pounds per capita ‘benefit’of Barnet and in fact suporting most of Northern and middle England?
GDP is around 1/10th of the UK total,ergo as capable of self support as the UK?
Is the reality of who benefits most seen in the distribution of wealth? Scottish households worse off than in ANY English region by up to 50%!How so?
Opposing independence – the undoubted good relations existing cross border. On the ‘pro’side, a very distinct national identity,significantly different in the view of the self. Different legal systems and an apparent willing to improve the lot of the populace by leading in reform an societal education. Addressing problems such as racism and sectarianism in ways redolent of the succesful handling of football violence in the 80′s while Westminster seems far more ineffective. The maturity of Scottish society and commerce sees a natural desire for self management and a move away from paternalism of a UK Parlaiment.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Hello KevT. I’m not clear what point you’re making?
You may have overlooked that Scotland’s ‘gross disposable household income’ per head is a lot higher than in most parts of the rest of the UK.
So far from being ‘worse off’ in income than other parts, we enjoy much higher average earnings than, say, our next-door-neighbours: the North of England (all 18 million of them) and reflecting our higher GVA that is partly caused byu the Barnett dosh. Our greater comparative wealth – published in Economic Trends 636 – has been recorded consistently since at least 1950s.
We justify our very generous Barnett dosh on the basis that we’re a poorer part of the UK and have greater needs. Better not look at our neighbours ‘next door’ then!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Well the cat is out of the bag today. The official figure are released by the civil servants at the Scottish Office. Scotland is in debt to the tune of £41bn as announced by Michael Moore in another gaffe prone attack on his own country.
However, online blogger Stephen Noone has gathered information that shows that Scotland’s share of the UK’s national debt, £715.5bn is actually some £60bn – £19bn more than has actually been spent. These calculations are based on population size and if Scotland were to vote for independence, which is how the UK govt would calculate our portion of the debt.
These figures are based over the last 30 years. Effectively in that time, being part of the union has/will cost every man, woman and child in Scotland an extra £3,800.
Now take the rest of your guff blogs down Ch4 and post the real truth on how Scotland supports England financially. We would have enjoyed a fiscal surplus over the last four years if we had been independent. Oh and before anyone in England goes on about the banks again, how about the £68bn pounds still due to Scotland in oil levy duty ?
How’s them apples Engerland ?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
You may have overlooked that we enjoy a beneficial gain from the ‘Barnett’ formula. [we also gained when our BoS & RBS both went bust - but that's another story]
The long held UK policy is that all parts shall receive as near equal public services as possible by paying extra for the higher costs of sparse population, distances and local wages levels.
Because Scotland has a very large rural area and above average wages, we receive a block grant of <11% of relevant UK budgets to support services for our 8.5% of UK population. Moreover, postal, defence and other services are also disproportionately supported in Scotland: which explains why those service costs are lower here than in other rural states.
The Petroleum Revenue Taxes amount to a billion pounds a year and other fuel taxes are equally levied on imported as well as domestic supplies. That billion is a lot less than our gain from being a rural nation within the UK.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I dont see why the Scottish should get control and money off the wind farms when they were ppaid for by UK government money
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Gary, don’t worry about the money. We Scots are too canny to want to give up on our best friends and customers. There’s only a minority of separtist bampots in Scotland.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I have no doubt that Scotland could go it alone, but I’d be more than sad to see it leave the UK. Scotland has contributed massively to Britain: financially, intellectually, culturally, politically, economically. And I just don’t think the Scots, English and Welsh are foreign to each other. We’re basically the same nation, but with some medieval differences that we should put behind us. The rest of the world would think we were mad if this small island off the coast of Europe chose to split itself three ways at a time when we are more and more insignificant globally anyway.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
If you are considering apportioning assets (other than via population), then you must also consider apportioning liabilities other than via population.
Given that the UK national debt ballooned as a result of the failure of RBS and Bank of Scotland, a fair apportionment of English-vs-Scottish liabilities would leave the Scots much worse off.
Of course, the real reason to support Scottish Independence is that it would prevent any future Labour governments in England.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
The Tories are actualy in two minds (less that one brain, but two minds), because although they wat to be in charge of all the UK, they knownfull well that if Scotland cut away, there will be a permament Tory Majority in the House of Commons. So as a resident of England I want Scotland to stay, but if, as hope I will be moving to Scotland in a year or two I will vote for Nationhood
Like or Dislike:
0
0
As an English person (married to a Northern Irishman) living in Northern Ireland I am interested in the implications of Scottish Independence for the rest of the UK. Would the break up of the UK stop with Scottish Independence? I am personally neither for it nor against it and as we are all members of the European Union I think the bigger question is what happens with the EU – will there be more integration? And aren’t we more impacted economically by the Eurozone anyway? However, living in a part of the UK with devolved powers it is my firm conviction that England is poorly represented by very London-centric government and that the English should seek devolved representation if they want a government interested in ordinary people’s issues.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
More Unionist guff based on flawed figures. Scotland will flourish by no longer being shackled to Westminster Governments who see our Country as nothing more than a place to raise revenue, recruit cannon fodder and dump nuclear weapons and waste. The sooner we’re shot of it the better.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I couldn’t agree more Lidya. The sooner we are shot of those aggressive and arrogant Scots the better, and then we will no longer have them having too much say on purely English matters in parliament relative to their minuscule number of population. Purhaps then hopefully the’ll find a need to pay the going rate for university places, old peoples home accomodation and prescription charges. Instead of being subsidised by the soft English politicians on our behalf.Let then see if they are so chirpy when the oil runs out( that’s all Salmon goes on about).And why should the then rest of us shoulder their defence and foreign affair commitments when they (as Alex Salmon hopes) dont’go the full hog of independance? It’s because they would like to have this benifit from the UK as it might be too much of an expense to go it completely alone.They don’t get called canny Scots for nought.God bye and good riddance. PS I imagine they’ll then buy a decent Scottish football team by giving foreign footballers Scottish nationality. Well, they can’t do it any other way!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
This is actually a reply to Hitherts.
Don’t take this so personally. We want to leave so that we can control our own affairs; not because we hate you. All my English friends living up here voted SNP, and some of them have already declared for independence.
Yes, our football team is dreadful. If it was an attempt to goad us into some pointless debate, it hasn’t worked. And football isn’t a measure of a nation’s ability to thrive, thankfully.
I have included a link to a recent article in The New Statesman, which may help you conclude that the information, or should that be misinformation, you receive daily from your rabid and, often, racist press, is, in fact, pure fantasy.
I suspect that the reason for this is to hide the real position of England’s economy. London is the most subsidised part of the UK, and it also has the worst areas of poverty and deprivation. England has a huge fiscal black-hole; a fiscal deficit that puts England on a par with Greece and Ireland.
Dig deeper Old Chap! There is a world of news, and facts and figures beyond London.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Either Scotland loses or England loses. Whichever is correct it makes sense for one of the two nations to declare independence!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I’m Scottish and for it’s independence, Im sick of feeling like we are second best, if a new law such as the smoking ban is coming into force, Scotland test drive it before England go by it, and there are many more incidents over the years, why did the “uk” not have the ban all at the same time? Scotland as more natural resources and this benefits the country which England could loose out on, as well as wind farms, north sea oils and fisheries. Previous comments I agree with mention they will want us as part of the uk until the oil is gone.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Having read the blogs of all you intellectuals using your big fancy words to try and outdo one another the real answer is actually based around a simple question: Why does the English/UK government want to keep hold of Scotland if Scotland is seen as a drain on their finances? Answer: The English government are not stupid and know that with Scotland comes a wealth of current and future economic, intellectual and cultural opportunities. Oil, gas, renewable energy, fishing exports, whiskey, tourism, education, etc. The list is endless. The future king even chose to be educated in Scotland (just throwing that in for good measure!!!!). The intellects of Scotland realise we will be far better off without the English and the intellects of England realise they will be worse off without the Scottish. Its about time people start to realise we can be a much greater nation without our English ‘overlords’. Stop being scared. Freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
How can a piddling nation of a miserable 4.1/2 million be “a much greater nation without the English”. Talk about notions of grandeur. You’ve certainly got more than your share of that. Have you noticed as to how those countries the size of Scotland are bye-passed in discussions relevant to all nations? No, of course you haven’t.With being full of your own importance you never would get round to that thought.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
hitherts, I don’t think that ‘Proud & honest Scotsman’ meant that we’d be better than England. I reckon he was saying that Scotland would be a better place to live than it is now.
You may consider us a “piddling nation of 4 1/2 million”; we are actually 5 million, but we don’t think we are better than you. Equally, we don’t think we are inferior either. The days of the world being in awe of an Englishman are long gone, I assure you.
What small countries are you referring to as being bypassed in discussions relevant to all nations? We Scots aren’t exactly ecstatic about being in the Arc of Bullying Nations. We would prefer our influence to be in a humanitarian and trading capacity.
And I think it a litle rich, an Englishman telling anyone that they are full of their own importance. Ask the rest of the world what they think!
You seem to have an enormous chip on your shoulder about us, but you also have this superiority complex, that gets ruffled when the natives get restless and have the audacity to challenge your position.
We agree on one thing, though. We’d much rather be apart!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
It will be supremely ironic to see the United Kingdom break up before the Euro does.
What will the new currency be? The English pound, the “Caledonian”, or actually (giggle) the Euro?
If a new currency is introduced, what will happen to already existing contracts?
Surely the share of UK Gilt debt that Scots have to assume should be proportional to the public spending that has been carried out. How will that be done? (i.e. the split of already existing gilts into a UK and a Scottish component?).
What about us foreign investors, do we not have a say? We did not buy long dated gilts on the assumption we’d be paid out in separate regional bonds? Who should we sue if the value of the two bonds we are given is lower than where gilts traded before the Scottish break up?
If it wasn’t for the financial seriousness of what it’s being discussed I’d certainly be happy to see the Scots experiment with independence.
And come to think of it. Why can Scottish independence not be decided in England and Wales. i.e. by the English and Welsh deciding to eject Scotland? There is absolutely no reason why not.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I think your fact checker is misinformed on the maritime border as this is using the fisheries border amended by Labour in 1997 and only applies to fishing quotas. There already is an internationally recognised maritime border between Scotland and England which was in existence before the Union of Parliaments. this gives Scotland over 97% of oil revenue. One future consideration is whether this border moves further south as there are legal questions about Berwick as it was never annexed by England but only taxed and administered.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Everyone seems to be missing the underlying problem that has caused this debate. It’s the ineptitude of the UK government that makes Scottish independence a consideration. If the UK was run decently Scotland would not NEED to be independent.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Scotland would not be leaving the UK it would be ending the UK!
Thes so called Scottish banks were independent financial institutions regulated by the UK government.
Trident is an unwanted obscenity here in Scotland, it is neither independent nor a deterrent but gives Britain a seat at the top table and allows it to perpetuate the world power fantasy at vast expense. A referendum on Trident would be a foregone conclusion. Question is, where would England put it and the associated nuclear arsenal?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Fact: Between 1980 and 2009, Scotland incurred a national deficit of £41bn over and above all revenues. Taking UK debt of £720bn, that would mean that Scotland, per head of population would have a debt of £60bn, some £19bn more than it has actually spent. These are official Scottish Office figures (GERS report).
Fact: Four of the last five years Scotland has produced positive figures in it’s balance sheet, the UK has not done this since 2001/02. Decrease the Barnett formula, our positive figures only go up.
Fact: The Barnett formula does favour Scotland above others, however, it is nowhere near what London ‘weighting’ allowances, nor do we have the infrastructure spend that London and the south east receives. Currently, for having 8.6% of the population we produce 9.4% of all revenues.
Fact: Outside the City and the South East, Scotland is by far the most profitable area of the UK. If we are subsidy junkies, what does that make Newcastle, the North East, the North west, Birmingham, Liverpool, the South West, Southampton and Manchester ?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
There is so much misinformation from too many people who haven’t the faintest idea of what is going on in Scotland.
Why isn’t the appropriate oil and gas wealth apportioned to the revenues raised in Scotland in the GERS figures? It is largely a Scottish resource!
Does anyone really believe that oil prices will dip?
Why is Scotland the only oil producing country in the world to get poorer, or for that resource to be insignificant? I saw a speech by Charles Hendry MP, Minister for Energy at an energy conference last year, where he commented that the projected wealth from the North Sea was worth £1 trillion to the British economy. This is without any new finds. Why would he say this, if it wasn’t true? If this is a highly important and significant contributor to the UK Exchequer, why couldn’t it be to Scotland?
Scotland already has important science, food & drink, tourism, finance and renewable energy sectors. Do you all think we are sitting on our backsides up here focusing on only the oil?
The question is not whether Scotland can survive, but whether England can fund their huge fiscal deficit.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
We might know that Richard McHarg would see the BRITISH fiscal deficit as all atributed to England rather than the fact it is the deficit attribuatable to Britain as a whole with a percentage share beloning to Scotland.
He might like to digest the following from Patrick Worrell’s above blog in which he gives the latest treasury figures on total Central Government Expenditure on Public Services that for the last decade Central Government has shelled out about £1,000 a year more on average on each Scot than English person.(we’ve been well aware of that for years)
In 2010/11 the projection is that per capita spend will be £5.795 in England as apposed to £6,833 in Scotland. So that vindicates those 41% of non scots who think those north of the border are doing disproportionately well from the Union. To confirm this the Expediture and Government Review Scotland shows that the treasury spent about £54 billion on Scotland and only recieved £43.5 billion back in revenue.
This will go some way to explain why we in England have been subsidising the Scots thus allowing them to have university tuition and prescriptions free,and no charge levied on those in old peoples homes.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Cordwainer, I never mentioned that the UK’s debt was attributable to England. I did say that it will be England that will struggle with its share of the UK debt, rather than Scotland.
Everyone is questioning Scotland’s economic viability, but I suggest that it is time to have a look at England’s position.
Your figures show the position without the oil revenues. Once applied, they show Scotland in surplus.
Also, there are many revenues raised in Scotland not attributed to Scotland. The Crown Estate is one. Companies with HQs in London, but with Scottish operations, is another.
Expenditure in GERS is calculated as a percentage proportion of the UK population. For example, Scotland’s share of defence spending is £3.3 billion, but only £2.8 billion is actually spent here. It goes on and on!
The GERS figures are skewed against Scotland, and yet still show Scotland in surplus. International figures place Scotland well above the UK in wealth.
Don’t worry about us! We’ll be fine!
Have a look at this link: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Maybe, just maybe, it could be the dreaded Barnet formula and the West Lothian question that needs our attention.
Let’s not destruct such a fantastic and powerfully close relationship.
Let not money destroy such a beautiful thing.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
It’s good to see one of the old myths getting a serious debunking here. but aint Mr Dundas working hard at perpetuating another – that Scotland wouldn’t have been able to bail out the banks. Remember that the banks are private companies. Remember that the hundreds of billions of pounds of tax paid by these banks during their good times didnt go to Scotland but was collected by the UK govt. Remember that Bailing Out was done by the governments in countries where these banks were operating, not just by the UK govt. So RBS companies operating in the US and in Belgium for example were similarly Bailed Out by the governments there.
You’re doing your best to play the canny Scot speaking for his sensible countrymen Mr Dundas, but its obvious from your posts that you are not that at all. Less of the myth making and more honest introspection and you’ll see that your party needs to come up with some good reasons for Scots to want to stay in a tired dysfunctional partnership that is good for neither country
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I’m sorry you’re ‘fiscally sick’. I speak openly and for myself.
Had the debts of RBS & BoS not been guaranteed by the UK government, both would have become instantly insolvent in October 2008, and unable to pay back the savings of any of their customers and counter-parties.
[Both banks had freely bought banks in England to establish themselves in that market].
Only bampots and the Tory Party thought allowing bank bankruptcies would be good.
Because the UK is a ‘large’ economy it can fund such bail-outs within its own resources. Small countries lack the scale to generate internal funding for themselves. Hence their vulnerability.
All UK taxes are collected by the Government and levied at equal rates on all parts. In accordance with our 1708 agreement. However, you may recall that the Thatcher Government’s agreement to the Scottish Poll Tax was held by us to be a breach of that agreement (despite the Poll Tax being invented in Scotland), which caused major upheavals that I joined with enthusiasm – and would do so again!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
RBS and HBOS, UK banks regulated in London.
If Scotland had been independent at the time, and that Independent Scotland thought these banks were important enough to the Scottish economy to bail out, then about 5% of the total cost would be Scotland’s share . As reported by the BBC:
http://joanmcalpine.typepad.com/joan_mcalpine/transcript-of-newsweek-scotland-yes-we-could-afford-the-baking-bailout.html
Scotland was not Independent at the time. Once we are we should agree to 8.4% based on population, and a bit of generosity.
http://stephennoon.blogspot.com/2011/07/emerging-truth-about-bank-bailout.html
Shouldn’t be too much of a problem for an under populated country with possibly more recourses (renewable/fossil) per head. And more world class educational institutions per head than any other country in the world.
As for the mineral rights in Scottish waters. We will not be using the made up new labor sea boundaries that new labor made up in 1999 (shown in the map above). We will be using the same international rules that apply to all other North sea countries, which are same rules that divide up the Caspian sea where I happen to be working now. So 90-95% in…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
After reading all the comments so far its obvious that most Scottish People want independence if the amount of pro percentage is replicated in a Scottish Referendum.
As an Englishman i admire the Scottish patriotism,and feel that if they don`t want to be in the Union anymore then that`s fine.
I personally hope we all stick together as one as it`s worked well so far.
Scotland will survive on its own,but do any of you think that things will really be much better ,i doubt it ,so just remember once out there will be no going back.
So whatever the reasons for or against make sure you are well informed before you cast your vote.
Would also point out that England isn`t just the southeast ,there is alot more to England than that and most of England outside the southeast gets ignored too!
Also i cant understand the anti-english feeling there is as most in England dont feel anti-Scottish,and thought history between our nations was in the past,so whatever your hatred of politicians in London please dont think we are all anti-Scottish.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Mark, please don’t equate a pro-Scottish sentiment for anti-Englishness. This is not the case. Scotland and England joined together in a Treaty of Union; a political treaty. By dissolving this treaty, we are not cutting ourselves off from the world. On the contrary, we will continue trading with England, as our companies do now. The only difference will be that we govern our own countries.
It is the Westminster system and our own unionist politicians that attract our anger. However, you’d ba amazed at the hatred emanating from England towards us for having the audacity to want self-determination. Independence for Scotland means independence for England too.
As for there being no going back, we are embarking on a journey that will hopefully end in independence. Why would we want to go back? We are not children wandering into a forest in the dead of night. Scotland is a wealthy, modern, forward-thinking nation, with a strong mature economy, and the potential to be much stronger. That can only happen with full control over our own economic decisions. We are best-placed to grow our economy.
The end of the Union doesn’t have to be a bitter experience!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Hello Mark & Richard, Please recall that twice as many Scots prefer to keep Holyrood and remain in the UK than wish to be become a separate country (see Scottish Social Attitudes longitude survey).
Moreover, there’s no obvious hatred toward Scots in England. Our neighbours and most important trading partners simply don’t want to prevent the one-third of Scots who want to, leaving the UK if that’s what we truly wish for.
Keep in mind that Quebec held three successive in-or-out referenda over a 25 year period of debate before settling for continued Canadian Federation. It took two referenda & 20 years to agree our own parliament. Maybe several referenda on separation lie ahead?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Richard McHarg: I agree with most of that. S’land should be given a chance on its own, same as England should be given one, if thats what everyone wants.
The only thing wrong is that you say Scotland has a strong mature economy? Maybe at the moment, but youre part of the UK, so part of sterling, UK trade routes, UK infrastructure etc etc.
If you managed to get devolution, this would mean your own currency (Euro or Groat, both would be very poor, especially the Groat which I believe would not have top class status), setting up your own frameworks for trade etc. Very infantile economy and not mature or strong.
Yes you may have some oil but do you not think that is all a bit egg in basketish? I mean imagine a bail out of recent scale (say for example £80billion), you would have to sell that much oil upfront to China or something, as you have no BOE to cover it. Big chunk of your oil future gone.
Whats the back up strategy? Tourism and Whiskey? Or a Greek/Irish style rescue when your currency fails. Good luck with that.
I hope we do all get what we want. Gets rid of the politics between us. No one can blame the others leaders then. All down to ourselves.
Very tiresome at the…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Hi GlenR1979.
Just to clarify, Scotland does have a strong economy.
Your reference to the BoE is worth discussing. The B0E is actually a UK institution. It doesn’t belong to England, just as any part of the infrastructure and assets of the UK don’t belong to England. We can adopt whichever currency we want. Sterling is not England’s currency, but the UK’s currency.
There are tens of thousands of businesses operating here; from large multi-nationals, to bread-and-butter family businesses. Oil and gas isn’t the only game in town, although it presently accounts for 25% of the UK’s corporation taxes. We also have 20% of the UK’s scientific R & D investment. Our whisky industry, which is growing, is the UK’s biggest earner in the food and drink sector.
The Unionists are only too happy to focus on Scotland’s economic position, but we never hear about England’s economic position. Why? Simply because it would shock everyone.
Have a wee look at this link to The New Statesman: http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/scotland-12288-union-public
My question again is: How will England manage its huge fiscal deficit after the dissolution of the…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I have read such a load of rubbish on this subject by people who know nothing about Scotland. The 300 year Union with England is a joke. The Scottish people never voted to be part of this Union. Scotland was sold to Queen Ann by her Barons, less than dozen of them, so please understand why we are hacked off. This Union came about by undemocratic means. how would you have liked England to have been sold to Scotland.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
richard try and spend a scottish pound in england…and after independence..they will be devoid,england having its own beaurocracy to deal with monetary issues like scotland will…only different countries,different people,different currencies…scotland might have a currency called a pound…..but not related to the english pound in any way…..makes sense
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I immagine that there are many like me who are fed up with Alick Salmond and his supporters quoting the North Sea oil as the financial means of beefing up of an inedpendant Scottish revenue to just about keep their ‘heads above water’.Treasury Figures on Central Government Expediture for the last decade show £1,000 more a year spent on each Scot than English person.
In 2010-2011 the projection is that per capita spend will be £5,795 in England as opposed to £6,833 in Scotland. As iv’e commented before this explains why we subsidise the uiversity tuition fees and prescription charges. not forgetting keeping their old dears free in care, all of which is denied us English. We also have the disgraceful position of Scottish MP’s voting on issues that only relate to the English affairs, but not recipricated in the Scottish parliament
PS. Contributer McHarg(above) implied that England is disliked by so many other(JEALOUS)contries. Presumably because we had the greatest Empire the world has ever seen. Not like the other piddling possessions hived off by the many other European countries with praiseworthy records of colonial care! Scots helped us keep the Empire in order.Well…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I find your comments on England subsidising Scotland in terms of our free universities. That is false, as we pay for our free education system from our budget, which of course is payed from our taxes.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Cordwainer.
Your figures are quite correct, but like the Whitehall Government, you forgot to include the oil revenues.
The actual figures are, Treasury costs to Scotland= £54 billion.
Revenue received from Scotland= £43.5 billion.
Oil revenue from North Sea= £12.9 billion.
Total revenue from Scotland= £56.4 billion.
Thats a plus in Whitehalls favour of £2.4 billion.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Errol McClelland
The problem with the Noth Sea oil revenues is that the division of areas containing oil have yet to be decided if partition takes place, and is not likely to follow established law of International Waters.
What ever the oucome I,like so many in England, are furious that as it currently stands Scotland receives the free Uni tuiton and prescription fees and the financial conciderations for tho elderly in care. It must be remembered these benifits were not taken because Scotland might leave the union. It was a sweetner for the act of devolution. Therefore at the disadvantage to the English tax payers. If the boot had been on the other foot we would have had outrage north of the boarder,and quite rightly too. PS Instead of Alex Salmond choosing the 700th aniversary of the Scots victory at Bannackburn,what about the anniversary of the Scots utter annialation at Flodden in 5013. Even though HenryV111 main army was fighting those pesky French? the reserve army carried out this great English victory. Are the Yank makers of Brave Hearts likely to make one of Flodden. This time giving a true account of the action? Don’t ever hold your breath on this one Alex Salmond!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Cordwainer.
I’m afraid you’ve got it wrong. Scotland never received any such sweetener. What benefits the Scottish people receive from the Scottish Government, come straight from our expenditure budget. Your government could do exactly the same, but they would rather spend your money on foreign aid, and fighting wars against people in grass skirts. Your quite right about the Battle of Flodden, The Scots lost… mainly down to an English educated king who didn’t know the first thing about battle tactics. We’ve defeated you so many times in battle, that we thought we should let you win one just to stop you moaning.
Accept the fact that we will win our independence, and the North Sea Oil Fields will be returned to their rightful owners, and in the not too distant future, we will be sending foreign aid to England.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
This debate has become a little ridiculous!
Splitting constitutions is not about tax revenues. NOBODY knows what those facts are. Nor is our issue about ancient history that was only ever recorded for the benefit of aristocrats.
No. Those issues are not critical.
What is important is that more than three-quarters of Scotland’s jobs are in commercial sectors outwith the tax raising and spending sector. Moreover, more than two-thirds of our ‘external’ trade is with the rest of the UK with whom we share many valuable family and business ties. With goodwill, those mutually beneficial relations will remain more important than all our parliamentarians.
Most people in the UK are quite happy with a reasonable separation because they don’t expect it’ll make much difference anyway. So, if our parliamentarians want to be told what to do by Frankfurt and Washington instead of through London, it’s hardly likely to make much difference to them. Moreover, we know we should aim to achieve amicable agreements with external bodies such as our many UK partners, EU (incl the Euro), NATO, WTO, IMF and both Wall St. and the City.
There’s a lot of work that’s not been…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Andrew Dundas
Sounds by your comments there would be little point in Alex Salmond persisting in his fervent desire to achieve Scotland’s breakaway from the Union. Vanity, political expediency, or sheer cussedness. Any of these, or all of them, could apply to the sort of character he appears to come across as.Yes, Scotland might as well join the Nordic Block.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Hello Cordwainer,
Most humans exhibit in some measure, the traits of which you complain. Pressures of political office require that politicians must display the exceptional ‘self-confidence’ & hypocrisy that you describe.
I suspect First Minister Salmond is shrewd and knows that complete separation is not feasible. His anti-unionist rhetoric is the sort of negative campaigning that wins a majority at Holyrood.
But only half our electors actually voted for any MSP last May. So maybe they’re not really interested in Holyrood?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
My fathers name was Burns and my mothers name was Conlon.
I would like to know how many people who write up on here believe there heritage to be pure Scottish Welsh Irish or English?
As my family are 4 generations born in England.
And i would not like to think how many families in Scotland Ireland & Wales are of mixed heritage. The once great minds of England Scotland Ireland and Wales are now born else where .. not where there origins started off.
Most of Scotland and England’s inventors if you look at the surnames did not originate from that place.
The Inventor of Penicillin .. born in Scotland origins Irish.
Harvey inventor of how blood was circulated round the body. Origins English.
Alan Turing .. broke the Enigma code. Origins English.
Alexander Bell inventor of the Phone. Origins Scottish.
A lot of clever people came out of Scotland but lets not forget England Ireland & Wales.
And before claiming the name of a Inventor lets look at the origins of a surname.
As Alex Salmond really does annoy me as he changes every thing to suit his self.
Successful born in Scotland .. Successful Originated from Scotland.
I am English and proud of it .. and i also believe in the…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
k payne –
So you’re saying that everyone in Scotland hates the English and are ‘narrow minded’? That would just be like me saying that everyone in England are posh pr**ks. However I am not narrow minded and know that this is not the case. In this case you are definitely the narrow minded one. I am Scottish and have English friends and personally I have taken the time to think about the issues and am actually against independence. Stop being so stereotypical. You clearly know nothing. K thanks.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Steph
After looking back over what i wrote .. I do not see anything in there, that implies that i do not like the Scottish people. I have relatives that live in Scotland & Wales. What i said was that we are all mixed heritage !! You know? we all have the same DNA in Britain. What i did imply is that i do not like Alex Salmond as he changes the rules as he goes along. And for anybody who follows him like a do .. I can assure you this man never states the same thing twice. He always gets out of answering any uncomfortable questions that are put forward even by his own people. I believe in the union, but i also believe this man whom i call the pied piper and you know what happened there. Will be the cause and break up of its success.
But thank you for your reply, I now realise i need to work on my communication skills further in any correspondence on this web site.
I hope that i have cleared things up in regards to what i meant to imply, i love the Scottish and Welsh people, so you are wrong there.
But you were right i am a posh English pr..k !! Who believes in the union. But i still think it will end and that it will be a dark day. And it will be the poor that bare the cross.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Sorry Steph
Ignore the correspondence i have just sent i thought it was in reply to my letter.
I did not realise you had addressed it to K Payne
Well at least there is one thing .. we both believe in the union.
Not that i believe that it will stop England and Scotland going there separate ways now.
i do believe there has been to much negative media coverage and it has done a lot of damage on both sides of the border.
Not by the people but Salmond. who is playing one off against the other.
I know my father was a burns .. maybe not Robert Burns. But he believed in the union just like my mother did and she is of Irish Origin.
Well who knows how the referendum will go but i believe that both countries will suffer and especially the poor.
As the poor never win .. only politicians and the like.
The country has gone mad, both sides with patriotism. How long will that feeling last when there is no food on the table, children suffering and mass job losses and people living on the street.
The utopia Salmond speaks of is a dream the reality will be very different.
But we will just wait and see what the vote is and what becomes of the reality for life in Britain in the future…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
As an Englishman I would love to see Scottish independence
…..20 billion barrels of oil left (so say 16 billion barrels left by the time of independence comes)
….at current extraction rates that will last 15 years
..what then?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
The union will stand after the Scottish referendum. The polls all show it. As a scot I am happy to be both scots and British. Your are all arguing over facts and figures which in truth nobody knows the real answer to. The real truth is probably hard for you ALL to swallow. Scotland would probably be fine if independent. As would England. Scotland probably does more or less pay its way. England probably doesn’t subsidise Scotland. England and Scotland share a great past and hopefully future together. We are a small and becoming increasingly less significant on the world stage. The union brings strength and sability for ALL of us in an uncertain world. The union will stand and continue to stand for many many years to come.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
you dont get it do you murray..if scotland doesn’t vote for independence..and gets devo max……england and the english will demand a vote on english independence from the uk…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I read these responses and its all far to clear to see the issues, lack of understanding.
1. can everyone stop staying England or Scotland this is a U.K – Scotland Issue.
UK being England Wales N.Ireland + Scots as it stands.
2. If Oil is the only major contributor to revenue then let them have it. its only a matter of time before oil become surpless.
3. Surely the U.K will be better off looking after a smaller state of 3 countries. thats common sense obviously.
4. Westminster has to look after London, lets face it, City of London does more to contribute than anywhere else.
5. It can never be a simple cut off. Scottish banks have a lot to answer for, English banks are no way perfect before an idiot comments.
6. As for Nuclear weapons etc. If the Scots dont want them there we can take them but dont ask for help if the worst happens to You.
7 and most importantly. If you think the UK is so bad for you. What do you think will happen when you join the Euro, which dont kid yourself will happen.
Be careful what you wish for, Grass is not always greener.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
In Chris’s no 6 comment about the Scots not wanting nuclear weapons on their soil and not asking for help if the worst happens suggests that if a nuclear attack was launched it would be such that we in the rest of the UK would be in a position to withhold help from those north of the border. I think it’s more likely we’d all be obliterated, certainly not in a position to be choosey. With the future so uncertain might be the very reason why it is better to stay as we are.In any case i suggest we wait and see what happens in Salmon’s referendum. I’ve got a feeling cold feet might be the outcome!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Firstly, a nuclear bomb would take out most of one major city, not the whole country. Obviously that would be awful, but get the facts straight. Secondly, it is not “Salmond’s referendum”. It is a referendum for the people of Scotland. Some of us don’t blindly support the SNP but still support independence. They aren’t even the only pro independence party. Again, get your facts straight.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
there are 3 things seem to have been forgotten in this discussion,
1. Scotland has a natural resource that we all the Scottish complain about and which will make us very wealthy and that is rain and snow. Very soon there will be a world water shortage and England has been experiencing more and more regular droughts. Scotland has so much water that we can’t use it all and so we will be able to charge the English for our water.
2. Scotland isn’t as heavily populated as England and if we keep a tight border control then we have a great deal of land for agriculture so food won’t be a problem.
3. Lastly and probably most importantly is that if Scotland chooses to remain with the Union then the English will never let us forget it and they will lord it over us for and our children for many, many years.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
brian in your point 2….what about when england sends all the scots back…and i mean 1st,2nd,3rd,and 4th generation scots born in england…..need a lot of rehousing….i think
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Did I indicate that a nuclear attack would only consist of a single bomb?. if such an attack was to occur I think the attacker would want to insure there would be no reply. And with such a relatively small area a few bombs would create sheer devastation.Don’t you think Graeme Arthur? So relate to what I actually stated and get your facts straight! As for a referendum don’t be so perdantic about the details. We know that a percentage of Scots want one..
Like or Dislike:
0
0
“As for a referendum don’t be so perdantic (sic) about the details. We know that a percentage of Scots want one”
So one minute you’re saying it’s “Salmon’s (sic)” (I thought that was a fish not a politician, but never mind, guess I’m just being “perdantic (sic)”) referendum, the next you’re saying a percentage of Scots want one… You sound a little confused my friend. I’m guessing you were trying to communicate that most Scots don’t want independence. Well there’s only one way to find that out… a referendum. That’s the point…
The point about the nuclear attack is that none of the newer more unstable nuclear states would waste their resources nuking Scotland, especially not with several nukes, because we wouldn’t be trying to bully our way around the world like some of the Westminster’s finest have been doing. One of the reasons I and many other people support independence is because we’d rather be a peaceful nation that doesn’t engage in illegal wars and no longer want to be associate with the history of evils committed in the name of the UK. If we were in so much danger without nukes, how come the most powerful nation in Europe currently has no…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I see the perdantic has got you,’ like a true scot’ hot under the collar. So I guess it got home. The missing ‘d ‘also showed your perdantic streak as you slowly realised who i was referring to. It won’t matter how it’s spelt because if you achieve indendence he will be of little significance internationally.Bye!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Thanks for showing your true colours to anyone else reading this board. Anyone that accuses independence supporters of being anti-English should see the kind of bile we have to put up with from the other side of the debate. I, and most of my fellow anti independence supporters are not anti English, but it would appear from some of the reactions I get that many of the anti-independence non-Scots are distinctly anti-Scottish and belittling. People talk of Salmond trying to create divisions between the Scots and the rest of the UK. It’s not him, but people like Cordwainer that cause this attitude. If you really think Scotland are such an insignificant country, why do you bother pretending to engage in the debate other than to troll and cause arguments? Remember, for every pathetic “cybernat” there are plenty of “cyberbrits”…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
graeme..we know what salmonds game is..not independence…but greater devolutionary powers and more english taxpayers money….and english reactions are a response to the chippy little scots anti englishness……get used to it…..because if you’re living in england…it’s going to get worse.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I myself would not like Scotland to leave us it would feel like a divorce and i know that the scots are not english lovers but i love the scots i can`t go on about politics because i am not a politician but it is hard when all your life you have always been one with each other if you understand what i am trying to say
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I’m English, and have a Scottish person living in my house in England…… we live perfectly harmoniously and I don’t consider him to be a “foreigner” in any way what so ever.
I personally think that anyone who claims to know what the score is financially is talking out of their posterior. The economies are so engrained that it is impossible to know for sure who the net beneficiaries are. Even those whose trade IS economics disagree, what chance do us non-economics mortals stand of getting the facts right. It’s simply guesswork at this stage of the game.
There is too much generalisation going on…… the Scottish hate the English, the English hate the Scottish etc etc. Whatever. I don’t believe it for a second. Sure, there are some that are, but you’ll get that in every nationality.
I’m for a strong and prosperous England and Scotland, whether we’re politically joined or just geographically joined. In fact, as a humanist, I hope every nation is strong and prosperous, It’s good for everyone.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Cordwainer: If one doesn’t believe in their own comments and hope for other people to agree with them, then what is the point in commenting? Spouting endless hatred at people just to try and provoke a reaction is completely and utterly pointless.
lesleyvann: You shouldn’t see it as a divorce! It’s just a change to more localised government. We’re not going to float away towards the arctic circle. There won’t be any border controls or anything, you’ll still be able to fire up the A1 for a visit!
Brad C: It’s nice to hear someone with their head so firmly screwed on! It’s not about where people are from, but what the people living in Scotland feel is best for them. Nationality is besides the point, it’s about government for a region. I personally think more local government is more progressive and more democratic, which is why I support independence or at least full devolution for every member country of the UK.
Also agree with your comments about economics. Economics is a social science: nobody can factually predict what will happen. Anyone that claims to factually know the answers will never be countering in all the variables. But I think it is very sad that this…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
As I said, padantic and also in love with your own comments. I like the appeal to others by assuming they will take your point of view. I think this shows how desperate you are for others to take your side, and who knows, perhaps like you. It’s a shame there are not others concerned with our little spate. Cheer up, it appears the latest addition (lesleyvann) is pathetically sucking up to you ‘if you understand what i am trying to say’ how demeaning is that little addition to comments How many blathering on this comment page do you think are politicians other than Graeme Arthur me?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Is the whole vote to be based on who get the North Sea oil/gas ?
If this is true then it only goes to show the English Goverment have no thought of the well being of the Scottish people.
The common statement i hear is ” let them get on with it as long as we dont have to pay for them”
Let me tell you this you dont have to pay for us, you never have, read above, this does not include the hidden revenue from fines both from comercial as well as criminal that go to the uk treasuary and loads of other hidden income that we dont get told about.
We only have a population of 5million, its your 60million that is holding us back with your high level of debt, unemployment and beneift payments, these cost ten times more to the UK than Scotland costs to run.
Let us keep our own income from where ever it comes from and keep your nose out of our natural resources.
Its the Uk that needs Scotland not Scotland that needs the UK and we dont want to be part of the sapping economy that the UK as a whole has become mainly due to the largest populated area England.
2014 Scotland will become free, free to chose, free to move on, free of the shackles of those who would be happy…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
The simple problem here is: The UK government is Westminster! thats it. the money goes there and never comes out. If anyone wants to check this, its all public sector knowledge and check the archives.
A few points have been made that are bordering on pathetic. Blame Scottish banks, when it wasn’t just “Scottish” banks and also check what fly English bankers who threw your money away before pointing the finger. Everyone needs to check the facts.
Yes Scotland wants the OIL, yes its in scottish water, yes the have every right to it! just accept that and move on. England has bought over Scottish factories, companies, industry etc for decades now, and promised to keep them open… did they? No of course not. Shut them down and moved them south.
Yet another plan to oppress Scotland. This has happened for so long now that England has too much industry, now runs out of natural resources due to the industry. The south’s under ground water reserves are dry. They aint coming back guys.
I could go on all day about how Scotland will benefit and only some of my points would be about oil. And before someone says Scottish banks this, government bail outs this… why don’t you…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Lots of interesting propositions, Chris. Have you considered whether “Scotland’s Oil” actually belongs to Scotland, or to the firms who’ve invested and striven to extract it? Isn’t it theirs to dispose of?
How do you know how much tax could be collected from Scottish sources? HMRC doesn’t know. Right now, nobody knows.
Maybe someone should find out?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
@Chris….
I know this is an emotional subject, and I commend you on asserting that “Everyone needs to check the facts.”, which I very much agree with.
As I mentioned in my previous posts, facts are very hard to get hold of [unbiased ones, anyway] and sorting out banks and oil is only a small part of the process….
BUT, in checking the “facts” I have to disagree with your assertion about the South’s industry and water reserves.
There will always be a need to import for industry, both North and South, rare earth metals, textiles, gas etc etc, so saying that it is a Southern problem is being disingenuous.
As for your assertion that South water levels are dry, here’s a fact for you to digest…….
south aquifer levels http://www.southeastwater.co.uk/pls/apex/f?p=101:535:0
south reservoir levels http://www.southernwater.co.uk/Environment/managingResources/reservoirLevels.asp
And to quote you………. “and They aint coming back guys”, implies that it’s not going to rain again ever. Looking out of my window right now, I would have to say I disagree with you.
I hope the right choice is made when the referendum takes place, although to be absolutely honest, I…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
@Chris cont….
I still don’t feel qualified enough to know whether the “right” choice is to separate or not.
Unbiased facts are extremely hard to come by. Trying to think about what other unintended consequences there are makes the mind boggle.
Too much of the discussion is being spent on just one or two sections of the debate, ie Oil and Banks. This only serves to skew what should be a logical debate, leaving other sections of the issue under-mentioned.
I’m interested to hear from the EU itself, as to whether there will be a problem with Scotland joining ( I’m calling this the Catalan question),NATO, UN member status ( part of the perm 5 ?), Scottish membership of Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty ?
I could go on and on (and already have, I know) But we need honest and wide-ranging debate.
Fresh discussion, rather than going over the same 1 or 2 things over and over again.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
There are so many questions that have not as yet had a satisfactory answer. Defence being a prime example. What happens to the historic Scottish regiments who have fought bravely in defence of the Union for many years and in many wars. Does Westminster continue to carry their cost? If there was another “Falklands” would an independent Scotland come to the defence of what were formally “British” men and woman abroad?
Putting such matters to one side I feel that the good people of Scotland will see through their leaders new clothes, and see him for what he is. His desire is not for the advancement of Scotland, but simply to assure his place on the world stage as a leader of a fully-fledged independent Scotland. Remember the old saying, divide and conquer!
What of the Brits who reside in Wales and England. Do they not have a say in this historic question? I am English first, British second and European third. After that I am a citizen of the world who travels extensively for my work. Such notions of independence and self-determination seen from a joined up global perspective are ridiculous. In a 100 years from now it will be a view largely forgotten as the civilised…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
….civilised nations of the world grow closer together in order to solve the global problems of energy, water and insurgents from the nations left behind as the world moves forward. Scotland needs to be in this tent, not outside shouting FREEDOM! What we have achieved together shows the value of the Union and it continued importance. We all have far more to lose than we have to gain.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Your comments really show how little you understand the reasons and issues for the people who support independence. It’s not just some crazy nationalists, it goes far beyond nationalism. That’s why the Greens and others support it. Some think there is no hope left for Westminster, would rather a truly proportional more local government which is voted for and best suited to deal with more local issues and would rather not be constantly be choosing between two neo-liberal, pro privatisation parties. It’s not about the SNP, it’s much bigger than that. There is an election 2 years after the referendum which Salmond could just as easily be voted out in. And most importantly, it’s our best chance of ridding our country and potentially the whole of Britain from nuclear weapons which were forced upon us without consulting the people.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
And anything good we have achieved together is now being dismantled before our very eyes (the welfare state, the NHS). What else has Britain got to it’s proud name, being instrumental in the worst financial crisis since the second world war (in which we decided the right thing to do was create the welfare state!) and leading our country to mass unemployment, greater inequality and transfer of wealth from the poorest to the richest? Colonisation and bullying the world into believing our wee island was important and powerful? No thanks, I would hope most people really don’t care about being important and powerful anymore. I would rather look out for the weakest in society and let the people down south who continue voting for those two disasters of political parties do so for as long as it takes them to realise they are digging their own grave. I just feel for all our neighbours south of the border who despise them both as much as I do.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I really like scotland. I used to live there. I really hope you don’t leave us. Im not a fan of westminster either. They have crippled the north east of england and the north west in fact. If you’s do separate can we come. Please Please Please
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Chris above (1 oct ) says “He could go on all day about how Scotland will benefit and only some of my points would be about oil”) Would the other points be about how only some 12 1/2 % of those Scots in work contribute to the tax system due, presumably, to the other 871/2 not earning enough to contribute, with many of them taking from the tax system in benifits. I can’t believe so many are on the backs of the rest of the working population of the UK. But the figure has been put in the out in the public domain.If it is true then you’ll need all the oil revenue you can get plus a lot more.
But then if you’re a fanatical Scot you’ll know the statement should be turned on it’s head!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Historically this is bunk as it was Scotland who took over England in 1603, and foisted the lousy Stuarts on us. Perhaps when we get independance from them they can take their parasitical royal family back? Then we’d really be quids in!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I thought Graemes reply speaks volumes of an attitude more often heard south of the boarder. He refers to the great things that have been achieved under the union as collectively “ours” ie created by all peoples of this nation, but things that he does not wish to be associated with as English. This is like the attitude that when a Scottish sportsman wins, he’s British but when he loses he is a “plucky Scot”.
How far does he suggest we go back with this return to times past in so far as borders and independence goes. An independent Wessex? Cornwall? Perhaps Scotland should be subdivided into the original clan segregation with each area ruled by its own body.
I understand the passion and the argument but to simply say that someone does not understand the issues because they chose to believe in something different is alarming and smacks of bigotry. I genuinely fear that if Scotland gains independence it will lose more than it will gain. Look at the arguments in favour and picture the country in 50 years from now. Do you really want to be the next Ireland?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
“Such notions of independence and self-determination seen from a joined up global perspective are ridiculous.”
“In a 100 years from now it will be a view largely forgotten”
“Scotland needs to be in this tent, not outside shouting FREEDOM!”
Sorry, and you have the nerve to call me bigoted?
“but things that he does not wish to be associated with as English”
What are you talking about, everything I referred to was collectively as British, apart from voting in the Tories, who were only a majority in England: fact! The New Labour Party and Gordon Brown are a disaster and they both originate in Scotland. It’s Westminster which is the problem.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Before voting to go it alone think of these facts. Since the census of 2001, the Scottish Government and leading academics in Scotland have expressed concern over the falling number of births in Scotland and the ageing and decline of the population which has occurred over recent decades. The major reason is seen to be emigration from Scotland, particularly to the rest of the United Kingdom, Since 1997 Scotland has generally experienced a natural decrease in population, with an excess of deaths over births. In 2004, for example, there were 4012 more deaths than births, although for the last five years this process has been slowly reversed with 4342 more births than deaths in 2008.
Compounding the problem of a declining and ageing population, Scotland is experiencing falling fertility and birth rates, a feature common to much of Europe. The ageing population sees the large numbers of people born in the post war period (1950s and 1960s) approach retirement. A common fear amongst commentators is the strain this could impose on an indipendent Scotlands resources, with a smaller working population being insufficient to support a high number of retirees and dependants.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
At the risk of being dumb can I just ask one simple question, and hopefully get a simple answer? If Scotland get independence then will England no longer make any financial support towards the running of the Scottish economy?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Possibly. Either way. It all depends on negotiations about:
*Allocation of tax revenues, duties & rates (and limits) recognising that many of the very big personal taxpayers & Corporations operate/live on both sides of the border, If Scotland not in EU, the external tariff will apply.
*Allocations of spirit and petroleum duties & special taxes,
*Allocation of shares of National Debts run up since 1603 or 1708,
*National Bond issuance: what rates will investors require of a new State? Or will the issues be shared?
*Joint operations such as military (it’s pointless sharing the hardware), diplomatic services and lots more, and finally
*Agreements with Oil Corps, NATO & EU partners yet to be even asked.
Nobody knows the answers because, no-one has asked anyone for their terms yet. And the big ‘Human Rights’ issues have hardly been mentioned yet. But hey! There’s two years to go before Autumn 2014. Lots can happen in those two years.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Funny how a socialist country like Scotland has had Scots saying let’s be a wee tax haven, reduce corporation tax to improve jobs! Surely it should me tax the rich till the pips squeak?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
If you want to reset history to the time of an independent Scotland then you need to roll back the financial timeline with it, not stop off in the 1970′s because it suits the numbers today.
Then we can give Scotland their bill for the bail out England gave them for 300 years after the ‘The Darien Colony’ debacle which bankrupted their country and the English have spent 300 years paying for.
The north sea oil reserves will make the interest payments on the debt if the prices remain high then it will just be a small matter of a few trillion pounds for the Scots to find to pay down the principal loan debts.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Can us English vote to get rid of the Scots please
Like or Dislike:
0
0
After reading this blog, and the bitter comments after it by mostly negative Englishman (however I did spot a few more positive English guys with some common sense.) – I think will be hard for Scots not to react with a Yes to independence in 2 years, given after hearing the slant in the London/UK media, english opinions on a daily basis.
The predominantly Tory government on top of that, will be fighting the case for the union, most of which the Scots did not vote for will be hard to win the Scots over. I am also slightly concerned why people refer to the banks that went down as ‘Scottish’?. They are UK banks and primarily governed at the financial capital of London, pretty much all the heads and CEOs exist there, if anything it is the UKs (Londons) fault and it has put the cost onto the people of the UK to bail out its own banks, not a scottish one at the moment. This gets mentioned time and time again, we are all obviously ‘bailing’ out our economy in different areas at different times so this is pretty much a non-comment.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Craig
Forget the politics and the rhetoric of Tories bashing, it is how the English are treated as the man in the street in your country that is the real problem the English have with the Scots. Find a Scots person who has lived and worked outside of Scotland for extended period of time and your normally fine. Find a Scots person who has been lived and worked in Scotland all their life and the experience is altogether different.
The English will have less of an issue the Scotts when they can visit the tourist areas of the Port of Leith during a world cup (while in my case my son attend a 6 year old birthday party in the Pizza Express) and not have to see Scottish football supporters making Nazi salutes in the pub next door while England played Germany and baying for English blood to be spilt and almost wrecking the tables and chairs with delight each time the Germans scored.
Or when you visit a bowling alley you can find all the flags of the attending nations of the world cup save for any St Georges Cross and/or the Union Jack as the manager proudly tells you the locals don’t want an English flag on their territory.
Nor do we much appreciate the anyone but…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I understand that independent Fraser of Allander Institute states that the net flow of subsidy from England to Scotland amounts to many billions every year . Further to this I also understand that according to international law just about all the oil reserves off Aberdeen are in English waters. All the above sounds pretty frightening, and to make matters worse, the EU Commissioners make 83% of England’s and Scotland’s laws. So the question for the SNP is: What sort of independence can they extract from all that? I appreciate that there are a numerous answers according to what point it is required to make!
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Wales has the worst economy in Britain and would be mad to seek independence from the EnglishWales union.Furthermore if Scotland wish to leave the Union is should first fully compensate England /Wales/N Ireland for our contributions /taxes etc made over the years for Scotland to have its present infrastructure i.e. puiblic buildings, houses, roads, schools, Unversities,hospitals,docks, airfields, railways, defence installations etc etc. As for oil and gas reserves it is at present British owned and we have all contributed to its success. Whatever the referendum result the predominant populations of England N.Ireland and Wales should not be sold down the river. We want our huge investments over the years protected not stolen from us to satisfy nationalistic schemes.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
If Scotland become independent that will mean Trident will move down south with Faslane losing god knows how many jobs,which will effect the local economy.Also having our own Military,can we afford to have our own ships etc commissioned.Also significant amount of shipping uses Aberdeen and Grangemouth which is obviously important for inports and exports,will the charges for all the shipping companies increase forcing them to move down south also.More loss
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Trident employs 520 (five hundred and twenty) people in Scotland
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/6138-baillie-trident-jobs-claim-challenged-by-official-mod-figures
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I would just like to mention, being a local Aberdonian how disgusted I am at the way I am treated in my own city. I lived in Cornwall for 4 years and earned a good wage as a nurse and rented a property at a fair price. Now I am back in the delightful grey oil capital of Europe, Aberdeen. I can barely afford to feed me and my family. The oil has pushed rental prices through the roof and cost of electric and gas is crippling. A pokey grotty one bedroom flat in a bad area is costing me 700 pounds a month and we all have share as there is no way I can a fford accomodation for the three of us. The wages as a nurse can barely pay my living cosst alone. Unless you work for the dirty oil you are up S*** creek without a paddle. There is so much greed and poverty divide here. Do I want an independant Scotland counting upon revenue with the rising costs of oil? NO!!!It only lines the pockets of greedy dirty people.I work very hard to look after sick and ill people and in turn feel sick and ill for the life I struggle with! I wish I had never left England. where are peoples morals about the planet we are leaving behind to our children? Disgusting.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
jacqueline..come back to england..we’ll kick out a scottish nurse who can go back to scotland..of course if your husband is scottish he wont be desirable…..but you can.wait there a minute you’re cornish,you can go back to cornwall…not england.as cornwall wants independence…no probs no english taxpayers money and a border to keep the cornish out
Like or Dislike:
0
0
As stated on the ten o clock london news, no one really knows what the seperation of Scotland will truly mean to the uk, and I believe it. We can all predict the outcome, but we will only know as the years pass by, if it happens at all. I have asked the average person on the street here (north of scotland-where english, scottish, and polish live in harmony XD) as to what should happen, and what it all even stands for, and in general, this proves that the average person on the street has no clue. To many people, scots, english etc, its simply about ‘independence’ or ‘freeeeeedom’
and thats it. As a result, I fear that if this vote gets enough major media attention, far more of the general population could vote, and the scottish majority might well choose independence for the sake of it, and or due to the fact that they want to get as far away from David Cameron as possible if he still reigns
Having read one or two arguably racist comments on here stating the scottish do not accept the english, I find thats complete nonsense. There is plenty of ignorance around the whole of great britain-try living in marlow buckinghamshire to find out if you will be accepted as…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Where the devil is north of Scotland as stated by LOL?Unless of course the Orkney and Shetland isles have already detached themselves form Scotland for good reason. Do we really care what the outcome of this insignificant county is in relation to the world overall. ?I think the debate has bored itself to extinction.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Jacqueline
I have just read your comment regarding your return to your own country and wish to offer you my sympathy for the unhappy situation you find yourself in.I myself am English, but my feelings for your predicament have nothing to do the current topic of Scottish independence but all to do with how I feel about inequality and the greed that has so much to do with it .Very best wishes for your future. I hope your predicament soon improves.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Deary me. Anyone denying that there is a massive chip on the shoulder of the average Scotsman is deluding themselves. I watched Question Time last week, hosted up in Scotland and it is amazing how the Scots were looking to be up in arms at everyone. Each member of the panel had to start most of their answers with “I was born in Scotland and I’m proud of my Scottish heritage” for fear that if they didn’t the audience would turn on them if they said anything that wasn’t anti Westminster. Reading the above comments just goes to show how biased people can be. Have you noticed that the UK (with many more English voters than NI, Scottish or Welsh) will vote Scottish politicians as the Prime Minister, but would it ever be likely that an English politician would be afforded any respect what so ever in Scotland?
If a Scottish politician (Tony Blair) lies to his cabinet and the entire nation in order to take us all to war, the Scots above say it was the act of an English government.
If a Scottish politician (Gordon Brown) states that there’ll be no more boom and bust, then presides over the biggest non-wartime boom and bust in history, he’s heralded as the man that had a rescue…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I think we should all stay together as a family. Note the USA and the USSR. I think we are all stronger as one combined nation by far. We are all British, and should help each other and talk to solve problems effectively together. I had a Scottish English teacher, and repeat her own words we are British.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I wish they would get the referendum over with and start the process to devolve as soon as possible and then we can all get on with our lives. Rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall and keeping us apart is manifestly the way ahead. Scotland has it’s oil and England has it’s problems, financial and social which need focus from politicians, not dithering over a contentious family break-up. Who loses if we go alone ? Initially England as Scotland has the backing of the world at large, oil and not forgetting that it is scarpering away leaving the rest of the UK to sort out the Royal Bank of …. and Halifax Bank of … etc. (What a heist!) Scotland will get huge support from the US and the other big players on the world scene. The English who are hanging on to the dream of the Union are just making it worse for themselves. I cheer when I hear of the impending independence issues reported on the radio/tv/paper, they are all going the Scottish independence way but nobody’s planning for the vacuum elsewhere when it happens. How about rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall and creating a few jobs in the North?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Duncan
It’s a bit lonely on this site at the moment but just to say how whole heartedly i agree with youy comment. The agressive attitude shown by so many north of the border to the English has always been there, but not recipricated in the same nasty way. When Bravehearts was shown in Scotland I heard there were many nasty aggressive young Scots who wanted to come south of the border to cut up rough! Trust theYanks- another bunch with a chip on their shoulders- to stir it up with an incorrect historical portrayal: William Wallace did lead a rebellion angainst those nasty English in 1296. He won the battle at Stirling Bridge and lost at Falkirk. Got himself captured and and executed in the most horrendous manner- not unusual in that period of history.Otherrwise I believe the film was a complete and inacurate load of romantic garbage.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Yes I think that Scotland should go it alone. After all they have been bludging and sponging of England for centuries. As the old saying goes “if it comes from Scotland, its Shite”. Maybe that’s because most Scots get around with their heads shoved where the sun doesn’t shine. They roll around in their own arrogance, just like a bunch of dumb quisling Norwegians. I understand many Scottish customs come from the Norwegians such as being dumb. So yes my Scottish flips go independent and do the rest of the world a favour don’t emigrate get back to Shiteland (New name for an Independent Scotland.
Maybe you could change the Scottish flag to a yellow cross on a brown background representing a race of Gutless Shitelanders. (No that’s not Shetlanders).
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Is this typical of English low life.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I am a Brit,I now live in Canada and I call myself a Brit, not English nor Scottish nor Welsh nor Irish.I am still a UK citizen,proud and happy to be such.
But it breaks my heart when I see what is happening in Britain.The hollowing out of industry, the rampant greed of the owners of capital and the self seeking arrogance of politicians.
Now I might have to watch the breakup of the UK, could things get worse. Squabbling over money and oil, who gets what from whom and how much.
Once,together we were Great Britain, are we shortly to become fragmented Little Britain.
That there is a civilized law abiding country Canada, that I and millions of others can live and thrive is testament to our Greatness, Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
I think scotland would do fine independently, even with out oil. Scotland is one of the most green countrys in the world, and have large amount of renewables already and set for the future. If they tapped into these resources it would be a better country altogether. Scotland would not have as a big a voice on the world stage, but we would be able to desplay our thoughts as we think, and not have some mps in westminister make them for us.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Sam, I wonder whether you and your pals know just how much I get paid by UK wide electricity users? Here in Scotland I get paid 50 pence for every kilowatt our ‘green’ energy produces. Moreover, that’s both a ‘tax-free’ return, and it’s contracted to rise in line with inflation for 20+ years.
It’s part of a government contract that will be part of Scotland’s debt obligations upon any separation of our two polities.
Scotland can’t afford the huge financial liabilities we’re investing in. We need the rest of the UK to share our very high costs of wind, tidal, and every other ‘green’ generation we may install. Moreover, none of us knows how long those wind and wave turbines will withstand our stormy weather. Which is yet another uncertainty.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
As Scottish/British, with Irish heritage I am trying hard to look at the arguments for and against independance. Having read most of the comments, it has only added to my confusion. The only reason for the split can be for economic reasons and the need to control our own affairs and not for some romantic notion of the scot which does not truly exist as we are all so interbred within the UK. Ideally, I personally, would prefer to stay together as I identify with all citizens of this island and admire our shared heritage. However, being controlled by politicians in the south east, who do not appear to identify with the problems, issues and economics of the citizens outwith the south east is pushing me into truly considering independance. The wealth of the UK appears to be concentrated in this south east area and has done for generations, all other regions appear to be, pretty much ignored. Can anyone convince me otherwise?
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Hello Lynsey,
I share your sentiments about the Union. It´s a geographical fact-of-life that the London region dominants all parts of our islands. For example, the UK is Scotland´s biggest external market. Why, even London alone consumes far more Scotch than we do in Scotland. Much the same applies to our porage and almost everything else. In short, our customers dominate our economy and no government can stop that.
There´s one mitigating factor: our median average income is the 2nd highest in the UK, and our cost-of.living and taxes are lower in Scotland. That´s been much the same since the 1950s.
Scotland´s government preference is that we stay with the pound. Which means that all our monetary policy would remain with London decisions. Alternatively we could adopt the Euro and have Frankfurt run our economy. Hobson´s choice!
Moreover, much other policy is agreed amongst EU States. Not much use being only 1 % of the EU population! Our Parliament would simply turn those London or EU policies into Scottish legal law.
It´s worth considering what negotiating clout we have. True we´ve 1.5% of world oil reserves, and make a bigger margin by selling it on our…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
By John Jappy.
As a civil servant in London, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.
However, when in 1968 I was able to examine the so-called “books” for the first time, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite and that Scotland contributed much more to the UK economy than its other partners. This was, of course, before the oil boom.
I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed nationalistic tendencies north of the border, which at that time were very weak. I took the decision to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the Treasury and the Establishment did an excellent job, aided and abetted by the media, to keep the myth about Scotland alive.
In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear. This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP…
Like or Dislike:
0
0
How come all the comments above that are against Scotland you can like or dislike, yet the ones Facts for Scotland you cant, I find that strange..Simple fact is i dont hate English people but i do detest being dictated to by and English government and monarchy. We could argue throughout history on this and yes WE CAN DO IT ALONE AND WE WILL. we wont join the EURO but we will join with the scandinavian countries as thats what we are. We will be strong and we will be a proud nation once more. Im sick of the English media propoganda scaremongers that hit you with lies that we cant. Even Cameron has not got the bottle to face Salmond on a live debate about Independance. That says it all for me…..SO YES YES AND YES is the answer
Like or Dislike:
0
0
You sound as though are the new Scottish Government Keith. You’ve obviously got it all sorted. Trouble is, things hardly ever go to plan,even when passionately declared by the single future ardent member of the new government. Sleep well.
Like or Dislike:
0
0
Hello Michael and Keith,
Back in the early ’60s when I was an apprentice in Unilever’s advertising department, it was well known that Scottish people overall had the highest discretionary spending money in the UK. That is the income available after housing & travel-to-work costs. It’s never been a secret that Scotland does well out of the Union.
Little has changed as we’ve migrated from one set of industries to another. Most of our external customers are ‘down South’ and especially in the London region. Scotland remains the beneficiary of a fully integrated UK economy.
The proposition we’re asked to decide upon next year is whether we’d like to have a separate Parliament or not? True, we’d still be integrated economically with the UK, but at least we’d have no say in those policies. And, in common with all of the smaller European States – including Norway – we’d have to adopt policies to suit the requirements of the big EU States & NATO.
But our MSPs will be able to demand bigger salaries! That’ll be novel!
Like or Dislike:
0
0