FactCheck: is Britain a tax credit haven?
Iain Duncan Smith has had a long hard go at Labour for their welfare spending.
Not for the first time, he says hard working taxpayers are paying for the big-spending ways of the last government.
This time, he’s got the tax credits system in his sights.
The current – though not for much longer – system was introduced by Labour as a way of bringing down child poverty.
Instead, the work and pensions secretary wrote in the Daily Telegraph today: “It tells a sorry story of dependency, wasted taxpayers’ money and fraud.”
“Tax credit payments rose by some 58 per cent ahead of the 2005 general election, and in the two years prior to the 2010 election, spending increased by about 20 per cent.”
The verdict
We asked the Revenue and Customs (HMRC), which administers work and child tax credits, how much has been paid out since the current system started under Labour in 2003 (before that it was the Working Families Tax Credit).
It said that in 2003-04, £16.4bn was paid, and the following year – the one that included the general election to which Mr Duncan Smith refers – £17.7bn.
That’s an increase of 8 per cent, not 58.
And in 2008-9, HMRC said, some £25.1bn was paid in tax credits. In the following year, it was £27.3bn. Which means that in the two years prior to the 2010 general election, spending on tax credits increased by 8.8 per cent, not 20.
We put that to the department for work and pensions. “It’s calculated on the basis of tax credits deflated by earnings. I can assure you it’s correct,” a spokeswoman said.
We’ve asked for the source of that information, and a detailed breakdown, but haven’t received it yet.
Whatever it is, must be a pretty fat adjustment, from eight to 58 per cent.
Out of fairness, we’ll leave it in the middle of the FactCheckometer just now.
“Between 2003 and 2010, Labour spent a staggering £171 billion on tax credits, contributing to a 60 per cent rise in the welfare bill. Far too much of that money was wasted, with fraud and error under Labour costing over £10 billion.”
The verdict
Mr Duncan Smith’s got his sums wrong on this one.
The total amount spent on tax credits, from 2003-04 to 2010-11, was £175.636bn, according to HMRC.
But because that includes the first year of the coalition government, we took the last year – 2010-11 – off, during which £28.542bn was spent.
That meant that under Labour, from when the scheme started to their last year in government, £147bn was spent, not £171bn.
We also asked HMRC how much had been lost through fraud and error in the tax credits system under Labour. It was actually £11.16bn, not £10bn, so Mr Duncan Smith’s only £1.16bn out there – which is better than his previous effort.
It’s also worth pointing out that of the £11.16bn lost to fraud and error under Labour, just £1.27bn of that was actually down to fraud. Or 0.7 per cent of the total amount spent on tax credits.
“It will come as no surprise therefore that fraudsters from around the world targeted this benefit for personal gain. “
The verdict
Actually this did come as a surprise. Fraudsters from around the world coming to the UK exploit the tax credit system? Sounds serious.
But when we asked HMRC how many non-UK nationals were responsible for tax credit fraud, it said: “The tax credit system doesn’t record nationalities of claimants, so we don’t have those figures.”
By Fariha Karim





There are 125 comments on this post
yet more manipulation of figure to suit their own ends what’s new from the current coalition.
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Smith manipulating the figures getting wrong again “NEVER”
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Yet another set of figures quoted by this government that are incorrect,the next election will be interesting,cannot see an outright winner will libdems switch sides?
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Wrong he may be but he has it in the headlines before anyone checks it and it sticks like mud in the minds of potential Tory voters. Will the BBC check it out and make the point that it is wrong? We shall see but I expect not. Will the Telegraph and the Daily Mail slash the deception across their front pages? No chance. So he gets away with it and only those who watch CH4 News will know, if they are concentrating that is! And some politicians wonder why we hate them.
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this applies tto who ever gets in power ,to get the facts and figures right and show how they achieved the result..
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Another attack on the very hard working poor who are paid a wage that is not a living wage, who need the tax credit system to be able to just about survive. What exactly does Mr Dunacn Smith want the poor to do?..commit suicide, disappear from the face of the earth, die of hunger..why is he just targeting the poor!! This time the working poor.- those who wake up every morning and work long hours and do not get paid enough to live.
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as usual the tories get their facts wrong whilst following a failed ldeaology
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Well what would you expect of this Government but lies, lies and statistics. What is worrying is that the BBC in almost all of its news bulletins today repeated what Smith had to say and made no real attempt to analyse and correct the totally unfounded statements. Nothing that Ministers say anymore can be taken at face value – everything needs to be checked and re-checked.
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I don’t really care about the detail. What I know to my cost is that Brown and his henchmen, Balls and Miliband, were directly responsible for getting the UK into the worst financial state that it has ever been in in my lifetime, and my three score and ten passed years ago. They should all be behind bars for what they have done, not being allowed to continue to soak the public purse while they utter drivel about things they can barely spell never mind understand. If ether of them had ever had a real job for any realistic length of time their words might have some weight.
I know that Labour spent money they didn’t have that would have put the directors of a public company behind bars for years. What they did will take more than one parliament to unravel and probably three to sort out. I also know that Cameron is not the man to do it and that Clegg might as well clear off to Portugal while he still can. It all makes me sick to the stomach…
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So do you think Labour were responsible for the financial meltdown in the US, Greece, Spain, Ireland, Iceland, Portugal etc too? The common denominator is an economic model based on unrestrained capitalism and greed, allowing the bankers to squander OUR money, the multinationals to get ever more powerful and the gap between rich and poor to widen to obscene margins. True, in the UK, ‘Nu’ Labour allowed the model to continue(although to be fair things like the NHS are far better off under Labour than Tory), but we need to change the whole set up, introduce a fairer taxation system and create jobs. It wasn’t Labour..honestly!
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i agree with that,
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If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes an accepted truth!! Wouldn’t it be nice to have a politician who answered a question given to them and who told the real truth,instead of their truth.
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Oh dear! I really think he should change his name from Ian Duncan Smith to Ian ‘Bunkum’ Smith!
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The trouble is that IDS’ figures and soundbites will be what most people will hear and see through most media – most journalists being happy to copy and paste without checking facts – so the vast majority of the electorate will accept these figures without any fact checking.
I hope Ch4 News will correct the figures and call IDS’ bluff in broadcast news.
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Whether his sums are wrong or not, there IS a big issue with the Tax credits system. Personally I do not understand why any government feels that:
a. IT is responsible for child poverty and
b. The solution is to pay welfare benefits to poorer parents.
As a parent of 3 children I’ve always believed that it was MY responsibility to ensure that my children didn’t live in poverty and bring them up in a way that encouraged them to be self sufficient. The Tax credits system doesn’t encourage me to do either of these things.
I do not consider the Tax Credits system to be a kind of Social Justice, but just another nail in the coffin of the fiscal mess this country is in. Just think about it for a minute. If the country is paying out circa £28Bn p.a. in tax credits,but the tax to pay for them has to be collected in the first place. So collectively we pay the Government £28Bn in tax – be it PAYE, VAT, National Insurance, Corporation Tax, Stamp Duty, Capital Gains etc. in order to get £28Bn back.
Wouldn’t it be so much simpler not to pay so much tax in the first place? How much does it cost to administer all this nonsense? There are thousands of experts earning a living…
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Typical Tory spin to hit the working class again. Once more the well to do will be better served and the daily worker, without whom (teachers, nurses, waste management, police, fire, retail staff, public transport staff etc) Britain would grind to a halt, are penalised for allowing a minority of private education half wits to blunder around ensuring that their fellow cronies are well served. I feel like we are harking back to the Victorian era rather than embarking on a future of equality and prosperity. In the 21st century, poverty should be a thing of the past. How can we be proud of our achievements when families are forced to choose between food or heating, when billions are squandered every day and when the greedy fat cats who control our banks and energy supplies rake in millions every month?
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It’s disgusting that so many people are abusing this and getting away with it. I’ve worked from being 16, because I’m not 25 I cant claim working tax credits. Yet an immigrant can come over, having never paid into the system and claim because he is 25. I thought laws prohibited age discrimination. My bills are no less than some of 25+. Fortunately I’m earning a good wage but a couple of years ago when I needed it. I was told no, goodbye. Still paying debts off I couldn’t afford to pay then. Shut the boarders, kick the cheats out.
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“I thought laws prohibited age discrimination”
They do but that doesn’t mean the right won’t need to be fought for in court, by somebody, which hasn’t happened yet. Who under 25 that needs tax credits is even going to consider fighting the govt anyway?
“It’s calculated on the basis of tax credits deflated by earnings. [..] Whatever it is, must be a pretty fat adjustment [..] Out of fairness, we’ll leave it in the middle of the FactCheckometer just now”
There’s no fairness that accounts for 58% wage deflation, especially as wages haven’t, y’know, gone up in like 5 years? Thus is can’t possibly be fair to leave in the middle when it’s a downright lie.
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This data seems pretty clear (that what IDS had claimed was itself a complete fabrication), so why wasn’t he “framed” as, at best disingenuous, at worse a complete fraud himself on the news item?
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The present tax credits does not encourage work. I have heard of people just working minimum hours (21 hours a week) as there is no encouragement to work full time. Evan when they are fit, offered more hours, they simply have no incentive to work more.Households with two adults,only one working part time to claim tax credits.
Some people tell me they wont buy a house while the government give them free housing. No need to look after the house or heating system or pay for house insurance. Just enjoy more holidays.
What you need is the welfare state for the minority, not for the majority.
On the other side you got rich people and companies who avoid tax.
This country is full of greedy people who want to pay nowt in and take out however much they can.
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Wow – who are these poverty positive wastrels seeking you out to tell you all their problems? Or are you maybe just talking a load of rubbish?
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Thank you for the facts on what seems to me to be yet another Daily Mail type of myth. Given that HMRC could not provide information/figures on the nationalities of tax-credit claimants, how does I.D.S. propose to substantiate his related claims ?
Are you likely to be able to persuade the Telegraph both to distance itself from I.D.S’s false claims and publish the accurate figures you obtained from the appropriate authorities ?
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Under 2nd Verdict your Fig. of 0.7% ( 1.27/147 X100 = 0.86% ) is wrong. Your’s is a simple human error;where as DWP/ IDS error is deliberate & misleading.Happy New Year to you all.
Regards
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What does come as no surprise is that another lying Tory, whose personal wealth and comfortable income paid by the taxpayer ensures he doesn’t need to rely on benefits, is preparing the ground for the next onslaught on the poor by discrediting a very good system that encourages people to work while keeping them out of poverty.
We are not fooled by his ridiculous Daily Moan’esque claims – people on tax credits are workers who need them because many like IDS and his wealthy chums in business don’t pay a living wage to their employees. This govt is made up of scum floating on top of UK taxpayers and suffocating them with their narrow and ill-informed views of who the deserving are or are not.
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“What does come as no surprise is that another lying Tory, whose personal wealth and comfortable income paid by the taxpayer ensures he doesn’t need to rely on benefits,…”
Actually, IDS owes much of his personal wealth to his wife, Elizabeth, known as Betsy. His father-in-law John Fremantle, the 5th baron Cottesloe, is reported to have asked the blazered army lieutenant who had been claiming unemployment benefit after his army career came to an end, “are you after Betsy’s booty?” Priceless, in both senses!
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Priceless indeed!
Wonderful snippet of info Sean
I guess marrying into money is the toffs version of benefit fraud… why earn it when you can live off someone else? Is what we taxpayers sub him for being an ill-informed politician just their pin money? Perhaps ministerial salaries should be means tested. That would save a few quid.
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It is more than overdue for the labour party to take the gloves off and come out fighting,this coalition government continually issues statements on the welfare state and any other subject they decide to target without first checking if they are factual,the latest example from duncan smith is a perfect example.
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If you include the £28.542bn Labour committed the government to spending in the first year of the coalition government, the total spend on tax credits by Labour between 2003/4 and 2010/11 was £175.636bn, which firmly puts that claim in the understated FACT column.
Unless you are seriously suggesting that a new government can and should cut off all benefits and tax credits overnight on election night? At best you could argue that changes could have been made at their first budget, which was about half way through the tax year, and it is normal for such changes to be gradual, regardless of the governing party’s ideology.
This is my first glance at Channel 4 Fact Check, and I’m a little dissappointed.
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Why does Channel 4 not challenge these figures on its television news or current affairs programmes? Inaccurate use of statistics is outrageous as it persuades a lot of people to think (and thus vote) in a particular way based on political spin and dogma rather than fact-based evidence. Politicians of all persuasions should be held to account for the ‘facts’ upon which they base their arguments.
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Whats this? A member of the tory party lying in an attempt to demonize those people who claim tax credits? Say it aint so!
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Firstly,well done again Fact Check! Again the Government has been caught peddling its inaccuracies and blatant lies.
Surely, there must be an undependent organisation who’s job it is to check these figures. By organisation, I’m thinking of the National Audit Office.
It appalls me that no other media organisation investigates the numbers as Fact Check does. This would give power to the people to enable them to make informed decisions.
I am disgusted that the Government are using this information as propaganda against the disabled, ‘benefit scrougers’ and foreign fraudsters.
They obviously think us ‘PLEBS’ are too stupid to find the truth.
This is happening too frequently for my liking.
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Any minister worth his salt checks his figures very, very carefully before going to print. It’s the journalists who usually get their facts wrong – see my post of yesterday.
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What’s the solution. More poverty. Pay more tax. Pay Mp’s more. Let’s calculate how much money Mp’s have stolen from tax payers. Let’s ask do we need so many Mp’s.? This government are selfishly making cuts to services that don’t affect them and no cuts are being made to Mp’s jobs and salaries.
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Interesting that now we have dispelled the notion, & Big lie, that the taxpayer pays for everything is just not true, I wonder what we should call “tax credits”. they are a welfare addition for poor people in poverty so I suppose we shud rename them “anti poverty payments” They were paid out of CREATED FUNDING just like any other welfare payment. So lets promote “tax credits are now anti poverty payments.
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Iain Duncan Smith had better shape up. If figures are going to be quoted, then he absolutely must get them right. Fraud, for example, appears to be a relatively trivial problem: why mention it? On the other hand, the “errors” are appalling.
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Besides the dubious facts, why is a spokeswoman for DWP, presumably a civil servant, supporting a Minister in what is clearly a party political intervention? Unless she’s a SpAd then this is almost certainly a transgression of the rules covering civil service neutrality.
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But he managed to get those numbers out to the Tory faithful through a newspaper that should have done what you did amd check the numbers.
The tories are detached from reality
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Seems like failed novelist IDS has made another unsuccessful entry into the world of fiction.
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Thank you for the number crunching, it seems to be a trait of this government to widly over-exaggerate the figures, in order to back up claims for policies that have resulted in the least well of to be sunk into absolute poverty. 2013 is going to be a very bad year, when people that have to claim JSA of either £56.00 or £71.00 are expected to pay 20% towards their council tax and surcharged on underoccupying by having an extra bedroom, (when there are no single roomed flats available) whilst utility prices keep rising at astonishing rates and food inflation is creating hungry children, you wonder how it will all end. Also the disabled will find themselves without support or access to mobility because of the devious moving of goal posts, when M.P’s enjoy an all inclusive expenses fest and allow big business and banks to carry on behaving badly, plus all the vast sums of money stashed in tax havens instead of circulating the economy. Please keep telling the truth about these things, it matters not which government is doing this but when they so obviously lie, con, defraud the Nation then it should be shouted from the rooftops. Don’t bury the bad news, people need to know.
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I’ve just gone to Fact Check for the first time, since I was highly intrigued by Duncan-Smith’s vast figures. As I suspected, going by what you have found, the man is massaging the truth to the point of outright falsification.
My point here is, why don’t you do more on the news itself to show how we are lied to. In this instance, you could have shouted out that there are NO FIGURES AT ALL on all these foreigners coming over to get tax credits. (Actually it’s so obviously ridiculous I don’t know why the idiot thought he’d make the claim in the first place.)
Keep up your excellent work.
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Since you need a valid National Insurance Number to claim Tax credits there must be an enormous amount of fraudulent NINO’s in the UK. Tax credits are a nightmare to work out but that is as much to do with the calculation as HMRC’s system. Why when HMRC can’t calculate people’s tax bills properly was it a surprise when they made a mess of tax credits. Yes there is some fraud but there are many working families who are now thousands of pounds in debt because they were given awards one year only to be told that they had been overpaid by £4500 and HMRC wants this back now.
When that happens you check the original award and the information is correct, the family have been accurate in giving HMRC information but HMRC made a mistake and have paid the couple too much and now want the money back.
IDS has always been cute at giving statistics that seem to show his point of view. This link gives these figures http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/index.php?page=fraud_error
For 2011/12 it is estimated that 2.1 per cent of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error, the same as the 2010/11 estimate.
The estimated value of overpayments is £3.4bn,…
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Perhaps if wages were more reasonable people wouldnt need tax credits .ive been paid the same rate for ten years when u ask for a raise its always the economy is bad
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Am I reading this that nearly £10bn was lost to error?
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I was chatting to the “Big Issue” seller outside our local Sainsbury’s the other day, about to give him a ‘Christmas Box’, and when he said “God bless” I asked him where he was from.
The answer did surprise me : “Moldova”.
So I went home and checked – Moldova is not yet a member of the EU, unlike the Bulgarians, Romanians etc, who are members of the EU.
I did ask myself : why are we allowing in Moldovians to be Big Issue Sellers when presumably we’ve got plenty of ‘our own’ homeless?
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As tax credits are counted as income for ppl on low incomes claiming housing benefit, the net cost to govt is a lot less than the headline figures.
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can i compliment you on the efforts you have made in showing the repeated use of incorrect figures, propaganda and language, duncan smith has used once more, to incorrectly further his ideology against the welfare system? Many sick, disabled and unemployed are at their wits end at the methods this man, aided and abetted by his colleagues and the sympathetic right wing press, uses to stigmatise and target to misrepresent the DWP Doctrine. When are the print press and more interestngly, the BBC, going to question these repeated lies and attacks. People are already starving, freezing cold and some taking their lives, because of these methods. How much blood and misery does this man need to be responsible for, before some decent religious man or woman, journalist or politician does an adequate job in telling the truth about the damage heis causing?
On this issue, is there no longer a religious leader in this land who is willing to do what is supposed to be a christian deed and standup for the weak, vulnerable and sick? equally when are the financial gamblers, bankers, hedgefunders and venture capitalists going to be held accountable?
Finally, we hear so much about mansion taxes,…
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That no record is available of the nationality of claimants is an admission of a very serious flaw in the design of HMRC information systems.
What other key records are missing and who is supposed to be delivering scrutiny and governance over these systems.?
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Iain Duncan Smith needs to explain why he gave these incorrect figures. Were they mistakes by himself, mistakes by someone else in his department, or deliberate untruths?
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Can a Tory tell the truth ?
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The usual outrageous nonsense to try and justify unfair cuts. How much longer can they get away with it?
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IDS is one of those dangerous politicians who believes HE KNOWS THE ANSWERS. This has come as much from what goes round in his head to any serious analysis of evidence, facts or common sense. It’s inevitable that poltiicians will attack their predecessors’ policies, especially when they are about to introduce something new. And it may be he wishes to push into public consciousness some alarmingly high (& misleading) figures because he wants to contrast them with what is going to happen under his universal benefit. In view of the speed it is being introduced, including new IT systems, it will be interesting to see how well it works & whether it is any more fraud-proof than his predecessors’ policies. The fact that he’s prepared to mislead about the past gives me no confidence about any future claims – especially when you take into account the figures for paying private sector firms to get jobseekers into work. Apart from the pathetically poor results compared to what was being claimed would happen, the system seemed rather open to fraud….oops, IDS!
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PS A Happy 2013 to you. Please keep up the good work! You are a rare beacon of light in a darkness of lies, misleading claims and inaccuracy.
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Very good work Kathy and the team but when will these corrections be shown in the general press so that Brits with heads in the sand can have their eyes opened?
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How many cases does IDS figure represent ?
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And they wonder why people are cynical about the government.
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mr smith is chasing the poorest for savings . he forgot that all the big rich people ,bankers etc defraut the system dayli , legally ,but he is not going after them because are all conservatives and donours. whats next mr smith ? 50% tax anyone earns more that 11,000 pa , and 45% over $1,000,000 ???
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mr smith is chasing the poorest again for savings? . he forgot that all the big rich people ,coorparations,bankers etc defraut the system dayli of billions , saved in switzerland banks illegally ,but he is not going after them because are all conservatives and donours. whats next mr smith ? 55% tax anyone earns more that 11,000 pa , and 45% over $1,000,000 ??? the problem in england is the british/british! people think are clever , educated and free to vote,but in reality are the most braiwashed people in europe .they are easily manipulated by a moron called duncan, and osborne and david ??? thats how easily they braiwash you here in england with this british MP.s ,SPECIALY USING US FORENERS AS THE BAIT!!!
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So will Channel 4 be covering IDS spurious assault on so called “benefit fraudsters and scroungers” in depth on your news programme?
How much longer is this nasty vile person from the nasty vile Tory party going to be allowed to stir up ill feeling and hatred towards certain groups in society?
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Apart from news reader getting her sums wrong 10 billion not 10million, ids is all out at see..
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As always well done, an interesting & informative read. We have all become accustomed to Politicians manipulating facts/figures,whatever it’s just the norm No! Well it shouldn’t be, should it? We have the government we deserve by our own compliance etc? We’ve seen the Arab spring, in 2013 I’d like to see a western spring! BTW HNY GHUA Regards, Ian.
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As regards the first point:
Regardless of any adjustment made, most of the increase might be down to the recession:
During recessions, people become unemployed. No surprise there, but vast numbers of people also see their earnings reduce due to reduced hours and lack of pay increases.
(Arthur Okun coined the term “tip of the iceberg” to refer to unemployment relative to the much larger effect of falling incomes in the rest of the working population.)
Clearly when this happens, more people would become eligible for tax credits. So any increase might not be discretionary, but cyclical (as a result of the recession).
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The thing to look at is, what’s IDS trying to stop us looking at? Could be several issues, but two stand out:
- the vote on the Welfare Uprating Bill on 8 January. Labour argues, quite correctly, that 60% of those hit by the below-inflation rise are in work, so not ‘skivers’. The huge majority of the rest will be finding it hard to get by on benefits as food, heating and rents keep rising.
- The final PIP proposals, sneaked out in the ‘small print’ just before Christmas, which reduce from 50m to 20m the qualifying distance for people with difficulty moving around to be eligible for the enhanced mobility component of PIP, which provides eligibility for the Motability scheme. The effects of this on the lives of disabled people and the wider economy could be nothing short of catastrophic.
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This just shows what scum the Tory party are when they attack a redistributive tax system that enables the poor including those with families to survive in the Friedmanesque “flexible” job market. Shame on them supping foreign champagne and driving their German cars into the British end of road.
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It seems disappointing to say the least that IDS cannot be honest about these matters.
He will destroy public trust in him and in his ability to address these issues.
HMRC should have a duty to correct any misuse or inaccurate interpretation of their statistics. That might help these situations?
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yet again more tory lie’s when you work for a firm if you told as many lie’s as this lot you would be sack’d and called untrust worthy now the folk that get tax cred need to be worried the same as the folk on d l a have for the last 2 year ? the tory lib dems need to hang there heads in shame the poor paying the price for the bankers greed
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We all know that the real culprit is the banks. Funny he never mentions that, the greatest tax credit fraud was the bail outs. All stolen from the tax payer and people in need of the benefits that the people pay for to receive in times of need as their right.
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Good work, when do you intend to start apply similar scrutiny to the rest of the coalitions lies?
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Given 2010 election was in May and tax year had already started surely you must include spending for that year as ‘under Labour’ as no practical opportunity to alter it
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Well everyone knows the Tories were always against life changing legislation which helped the working classes ie 1948 NHS, 1975 Health & Safety at Work Act, 1999 Minimum Wage, 2012/13 Working Family Tax Credits?
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Duncan Smith is establishing himself as the Propaganda Minister for the right wing. If he isn’t vilifying minority groups like the unemployed he is spreading misinformation
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Saw these figures quoted on Facebook, so came to the Channel 4 website for more info.
The figures still grew from 2003/4 to 2008/9 by nearly 70 percent which incredible in a period of low inflation.
So while you’re correct to lampast him for lying, please don’t lose that message that Labour were really wasteful.
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I think that some of that comes from the fact that tax credits were being introduced from scratch during this period. The real failure of the Labour Government was not realising that in-work benefits incentivise employers to pay the minimum they can get away with in a deregulated, non-unionised job market – with the state topping up. That’s why this horrible word “predistribution” seems a better idea. If you get employers to pay a “living wage” (rather than one which is reduced in the expectation of benefit payments), you will actually cut the overall welfare budget significantly. There is a cost to that in terms of higher prices – but the consumers who buy the products of these businesses pay rather than the general taxpayer. In any case, it would be possible for the Government to incentivise payment of a “living wage” through reducing National Insurance contributions for those businesses that pay a proper wage, thus helping to cut the welfare bill.
In any case, this isn’t a party political thing. The Conservatives introduced Disability Living Allowance and Incapacity Benefit, the cost of which rocketed well before 1997. IB was almost certainly encouraged to make the…
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What No Idea Smith fails to tell the people is, this money is paid to LOW INCOME workers, so indirectly subsidising company profits. I am all for cancelling welfare payments but, companies WILL have to be made to pay more. Also child benefit is claimable by ALL people rich, who set it aside to pay for uni later and the poor who will struggle to feed and clothe their family on the measly couple of quid a week. It should be means tested! Forget your universal credit, means test ALL benefits and stop subsidising companies! Better in the tax payers pocket than getting shared around the board room!
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Think Mr Smith might need some extra maths lessons. I’m sure the vast majority use the system as it supposed to be used .Until this year I’m 53 I had worked the majority of my adult life because of illness I am not at present able so have not worked for several months and my Wife needs to be with me most of the time as I have limited mobility due to having tares in 4 discs in my spine which are also bulging causing a lot of pain to get help I had to jump through bloody hoops figuratively speaking they want to know the ins an outs of a ducks arse. I did not choose to be in this position yet people like myself and others in similar circumstances seem to be the target of this crappy government who let big companies get away with paying little of no tax and have expense accounts most of us could only dream of. They should try an walk in Mr Averages shoes for a few weeks an see how they manage but they won’t because their to busy looking out for their own interests.
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Iain Duncan Smith is at it again. This is a man who carefully times his Benefit-Baiting to coincide with slow news days. Remember how he used slow weekends to equate the tragic murder of ‘Baby Peter’ and the kidnapping of ‘Shannon Matthews’ with the ‘Benefits Lifestyle’ Now he is trying to confuse the public with these false statistics.
The Tax-Credit system is indeed flawed as it encourages bad wages however Iain Duncan Smith is more interested in his ideological Benefit-Baiting than in making a contribution to the debate on the living-wage. Only a return to good wages paid for through productivity will end the need for Tax-Credits and other rebates. We need an honest debate on this issue from senior politicians, not the calculated Benefit-Baiting we hear so often from Iain Duncan Smith.
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Cathy,
There are no depths the bizarre two-headed boy CamClegg will not plumb, no lies they will not tell, no lickspittle (like IDS) they will not employ to try to crush the very notion of universal benefit in a fair society.
Take this phrase, “It will come as no surprise therefore that fraudsters from around the world targeted this benefit for personal gain.” This, from a party whose whole existence is based on maintaining control by capitalist liars and thieves who have just defrauded the GLOBAL economy to the tune of not billions but TRILLIONS. Not a single word against them from IDS and the Two-Headed Boy. Not even a slight tax gesture of “From each according to his means….”
I am all in favour of locking up first rank fraudsters who steal from society. That’s why I would like to see most of the bankers, politicians and senior civil servants doing a minimum Ten Stretch with no parole. We might even extradite a Swiss banker thug and offshore fraudster or two. Then we could concentrate on the evil poor and undeserving who cause so much distress to millionaires like IDS and the Two-Headed Boy.
It won’t happen though, because they get too much enjoyment from…
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….crushing ordinary citizens and their families. It’ what tories do, and they’ll never be any different.
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Perhaps the “factchecker” themselves should check their own facts?
a) IDS didn’t say “£10bn” had been lost to fraud and error – he said “over £10bn” (see your own quote). So if the total was £11.6bn then he’s totally accurate.
(Oh and did HMRC supply you with the information to check that figure or was it actually DWP?)
b) IDS said: in “two” years prior to the 2010 election (see your own quote). Doesn’t that mean a comparison of 2009/10 with 2007/8? If you look at the finalised awards of tax credits (as published in the NAO’s report on HMRC’s accounts) for those years, they were:
2007/8 £19.9bn
2008/9 £23.6bn
2009/10 £26.4bn
So even accounting for inflation, that’s a massive increase – I make it 26% but I may have accounted for inflation wrongly.
(You perhaps also need to be made aware of the difference between TCs “paid out” and the TCs finalised awards, which is likely to be what IDS was referring to – not sure if you understand the difference and how Tax Credits are administered?)
Nevermind – even the Telegraph itself misquoted IDS’ numbers in its own editorial and also made up its own wrong statistics which are now being publicised…
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c) Although the tax credits system may not record nationalities, HMRC’s organised fraud investigators do and they keep their own statistics. A cursory internet search would show you this interesting report about fraud in the Tax Credits system:
http://www.revenuebenefits.org.uk/pdf/HMRCs-use-of-information-and-intelligence-to-counter-fraud-in-the-tax-credits-system-20111216.pdf
See for instance para. 10.18 which describes foreign nationals attacking the Tax Credits system.
Also, it is well known that when TC was introduced with an online portal, it was targeted by frausters from across the world.
d) You say that “of the £11.6bn fraud and error, just £1.27bn was fraud”. As the above mentioned report says (see para. 5.9), this ignores the many millions lost to organised fraud which goes unmeasured (since by it’s nature, it is hard to find through a simple sampling method) but which is uncovered by the fraud investigators – which is what IDS was presumably referring to when he spoke of Tax Credits being targetted by foreign nationals.
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But your reference to the HMRC report, which I read, gives no indication of scale – merely that there are cases of tax credit fraud based in eastern Europe. There seems little suggestion in this report that there is a world wide attack on the UK tax credit system. If IDS had detailed statistics which would have helped prove his case, I have no doubt he would have paraded them. What he’s actually done is put out a series of misleading figures, based on misusing evidence, to score a political point. Personally, I wish we could stop all this “yar, boo, sucks” apprach to politics and actually get them to work with experts to produce a benefit system that gives help to those who need it, incentivises those who can to get back into work, prevents people from idling their time on benefits when they are capable of work and also stops giving benefits to people wealthy enough not to need them. Because the present Govenment wishes to equate all people on benefits as shirkers, it isn’t capable of understanding the range of solutions which are needed. They’re making wholesale changes. The next Government will do the same. We need to develop a consensus on a way forward that is affordable,…
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‘It’s also worth pointing out that of the £11.16bn lost to fraud and error under Labour, just £1.27bn of that was actually down to fraud’
Can someone please explain to me how £1.27 billion was fraudulently claimed? That’s way over £17 million for every man, woman & child in the UK.
It’s preposterous…
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Comments again designed to deflect from the real problem that the Tories have not tackled banking and city fraud which costs the country so much more.It’s like complaining about a mosquito when there’s a tiger loose in the room.
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This proves what citizens who don’t read the sun/telegraph/mail have always (or should) know. The Tories tell lies! They try to turn the working poor against the non-working poor in a divide and rule strategy that they always use when in power to keep the class divide.
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“But because that includes the first year of the coalition government, we took the last year – 2010-11 – off, during which £28.542bn was spent.”
This is unfair, the system is still Labours. All changes in government take at least two years to impact. This is still Labour spending.
“how much had been lost through fraud and error in the tax credits system under Labour. It was actually £11.16bn, not £10bn”
How does that help your case? so spending was WORSE than he claimed. the fact that he was out numerically does not detract from the thrust of the point.
“Actually this did come as a surprise. Fraudsters from around the world coming to the UK exploit the tax credit system? Sounds serious.
But when we asked HMRC how many non-UK nationals were responsible for tax credit fraud, it said: “The tax credit system doesn’t record nationalities of claimants, so we don’t have those figures.””
Does this mean you’re going to ignore that this might be a serious position because Labour failed to implement a viable system?
While you might be right on the smallest technical detail, your analysis is very biased.
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What is often forgotten about Child Tax Credits is that for those on Unemployment, Sickness and Maternity benefits, these were originally paid by DWP. They are “the amount the law says are needed (for children) to live on.”
They were not new benefits but were removed from DWP management to HMRC. Originally, they were paid to the claimant. Child Tax Credits allowed women direct access to an income stream.
The danger of Universal Credit is that it destroys female direct management of family (child) income.
The other danger, given the overt dishonest use of statistics by IDS/DWP, is that the protection provided by “this is the amount the law says are needed to live on” will be whittled away.
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IDS gets things wrong yet again.
Or, as we say in less charitable circles, he flat-out lied.
No surprise there – the man is a pathological liar and couldn’t tell the truth with a gun to his head. And lying so consistently and so blatantly is a major indicator of mental illness, which poses the question “Is he fit to hold office?”
In my view, definitely not.
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IDS should resign!
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IDS has consistently lied his way through office. He is on an ideological drive so none of this is surprising. It is all part of his attempt to get the public on his side but he fails to understand the majority are only a short step away from the benefits system because of his government’s incompetence.
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Great work. You can’t trust a thing that these Tories say.
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If this is the case then surely IDS should be out of a job, He’s making cuts based on figures that are seriously incorrect, if ever there was a case of Gross Misconduct then surely this is it.
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Yet more facist propaganda from these dishonest cowboys!
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The attempt to merge benefits and tax had been discussed for years before Gordon Brown decided to have a go at it. The main difficulty was that tax works on an annual income, while benefits were all based on weekly payments and adjustments. Once payments had been made, they were adjusted to what someone’s annual income was, which was a big shock at the end of the year, as in these circumstances the money gets spent on basic stuff as it is paid out and people found themselves hugely in debt just because their circumstances had improved and they were no longer entitled to money they had been given months before and spent. This is not fraud.
Similar problems and worse will arise from the plans to screw the poor for a percentage of Council Tax, extra payments because of spare rooms in their houses, and all the problems that will arise from putting all benefit payments on line.
If Ian Duncan Smith really cared about those in need, rather than using them to attack Labour, he would be worrying about the disasters to come in the Spring, not the past.
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It’s good that someone took this heartless & lying buffoon to task on his spouting.
But, in all truth, it does not need a fact checker to look into the eyes of a liar and find him out.
This man has lied shamelessly throughout his political existence because frankly, without the lies he would be shown up as the totally worthless human being that he so obviously is.
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Well what a surprise, that Smith didn’t let the truth inconvenience his porkies, this needs to be broadcast in the papers and on TV more evidence to bring down these new Nazis.
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Terrible to see the government once again lying. This time IDS has been completely irresponsible and made ridiculous remarks that are so far off that it worries me. These sorts of flippant comments cannot be tolerated, not by the government or by anyone. IDS is just one of many incapable tories who seriously need to be removed before they mess up our country further. It’s unbelievable the lies he has been saying, it does not surprise me to see this, the shear desperation of the Conservatives to get any ounce of support has once been shot down.
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Usual Channel 4 left wing puff piece.
“just £1.27bn of that was actually down to fraud”
Phew, that’s a relief!
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Good piece of journalism. The working families tax credit was a tax break for ordinary people. Now its being abolished. This government gives tax breaks to the rich, eg 50 per cent reduced to 45 per cent, and abolishes them for the rest. No amount of sophistry can disguise their intentions. They want to reward the greedy and vainglorious at the expense of the rest of us. Iain Duncan Smith should be ashamed of himself. Greed and pride are vices, according to the church which Mr. Duncan Smith belongs to – and yet he also belongs to a party which exists to indulge these qualities. Envy is also a vice of course but I don’t envy the greedy because I think they’ve got their priorities wrong. Excess doesn’t lead to personal happiness. Ask any addict. Sufficiency makes people happy. Working families tax credit helped people to live sufficiently, according to the standards of our society, and not greedily. Shame on Iain Duncan Smith. And he told big porkies about it too!
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I have to say that this so called higher and elite education that this unelected government had is actually appalling and I got a better education in a normal Secondary Modern – I can now say with a LOT of pride that I passed my exams without having to pay a single penny to get them – those upper class highly educated had to pay dearly for not having an education at all. Oh how I can gloat.
As for IDS (who I actually call AIDS due to him being such a scourge that we want to find a way to eradicate it), he hasn’t a clue about anything. He has failed at everything he has ever laid hands on or even off. It’s about time Clegg and Co stood up and told the fat grease ball that his days were over ‘cos they were making a laughing stock out of the coalition and they were also sick of looking at his smug greasy face! At least that would make Clegg and Co to have actually done something, and to go out with a bang – ‘cos the LibDems are gone forever for their crime against us all. If they then got rid of Clegg you can bet your bottom dollar that the next leader of the Libdems would end the coalition – whoo hoo – I could do with some of that!
I just want our country to have at least…
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IDS talking bulls***t again, but all parties do the same thing, just those who need the bebefits that sufer whilst tax avoidance by those at the top goes on unabaited!
No change at the top but more misery for those at the bottom – the country needs real change, not this sham democracy!
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Looks like It’s IDS whose fraud it is.
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Your own figures from HMRC show a nearly 70 percent increase tax credit payments between 2003 and 2009. Incredible considering it was a period of low inflation. Labour really did waste a lot of cash. Why? I thought the economy was booming for most of it.
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As Owen Jones says: Tory lies… https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/286148590651449344
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Typical politicians’ spin; watch out for the less able in our society taking a financial hit – # it’s the poor that always pays! Same tactics use to allude to people on benefit are skivers not strivers- justifying the hardship doled out to the most vulnerable!! DWP hiding behind Atos with their ‘fit to work criteria’ then the new ‘room tax’ this will take more money from the poorer of our ‘caring’ society. There are many empty privately owned accommodations’ that could be brought into use.
Private ‘property notion’ is a great way to run a country for the ‘haves’ but a totally different experience for the less fortunate- being pushed to move or deal with far less money-
Ian Duncan smith stated categorically that no one will be out of pocket with the move to universal credit. Housing benefit will be subsumed into U C but the room tax makes a lie of this!
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Brilliant. Thanks for this.
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Iain Duncan Smith has a problem: how can he persuade electors that hitting families with children has ‘no alternative’?
If he can persuade the Daily Telegraph & Daily Mail to broadcast his misinformation, he may deceive electors into believing that TINA is alive and well. (TINA is the Thatcher claim that “there is no alternative’ to policies designed to punish the poor).
The truth is that Duncan-Smith is a traditional Tory who wants to force low earner families back into ‘their place’ which is to live in squalid poverty whilst he and his pals continue to enjoy low taxes on their dividends and rents.
As Goebels – Hitler’s propaganda Minister – claimed and demonstrated, the big lie becomes believed if supported by a little truth. The ‘little truth’ in this case is that supporting low-income families requires Duncan-Smith to pay more tax. He doesn’t like that.
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This comes as no surprise since facts and evidence are not really this government’s strong point.
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Surprise, surprise!! Iain Duncan-Smith speaks with forked tongue.
Still. Who cares about being factually correct, when the real reason for attacking the poorest people is ideologically driven, and reported by most of the media without question.
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None of this is very surprising really, is it? So much of what this Coalition promulgates as being factually correct is misinformation of the very worst kind and, as long as the element of the UK Press that supports this government hype their nonsense, people will remain gullible and believe them. Sadly, we ALL have relatives, friends or neighbours somewhere in the country, or perhaps just folk that we meet in passing, who are part of the disenfranchised communities that surround us. Unless or until those people and their supporters speak out, and we can hear and see the numbers involved – and, of course, they will almost certainly increase to a more numerous proportion of the population after April – the doubting Thomas’s and the unbelievers will continue to believe that it is all the last government’s fault, and the fault of the “skivers” and “workshy” for their commitment to laziness, that the country lies stricken in the midst of recession.
The Labour Party, the Trade Unions and the multitude of charitable organisations that exist in the UK, MUST get their heads together and fight against this parsimonious bunch of liars, and use the proof that exists that shows that…
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I.D.S.has by deliberation,laundered these statistics in order to justify government policy on it`s welfare reforms.The repercussions on society will be devastating both in the short and long term.
All this from a man who has failed in every walk of his own life,and what he is doing now is being funded by the taxpayer.The man is a total parasite & scrounger which the country cannot afford.
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Iain Duncan Smith is a liar and a disgrace. Cameron should have dumped him during the last reshuffle.
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Tax credits like FIS before it are a massive subsidy to capitalism to augment poverty wages to wage-slaves trapped in low paid jobs. Duncan-Smith is just playing hard & loose with facts & transferring blame away from the system he represents.
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Why are politicians allowed to lie like this and are not prosecuted?
Is there any wonder that the public mistrust them.
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Any minister worth his salt checks his figures very, very carefully before going to print. It’s the journalists who usually get their facts wrong and these Channel4 journalists are no exception – see my post of yesterday. Channel4 has got its facts wrong.
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none of this is surprising – as we now know during the Thatcher era there was a push to dismantle the welfare state and pivatise the nhs. they backed off then but are now doing the same as stealthily as possible as a long term policy. they want to force people into work, even if there are no jobs or part time jobs. this creates a low wage economy which benefits very few and is self defeating as it reduces the spending power of the majority. the economy cannot grow or reduce its overall debt if over 70%+ of the population are living at at subsistence levels.
we need susstantial changes starting with a redefinition of a directors fiduciary duty to its shareholders. we cannot continue with a situation where a directors duties are for the benefit of the shareholder alone and increasingly against the majority of tax payers. every time a company avoids tax, the ordinary paye tax payer has to pay more or has reduced services.
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IDS is no different to Labour’s Frank Field and Liam Byrne. They all think that whilst hard working immigrants are doing the jobs Britons don’t want….blah blah. If migrant workers were not eligible for in work benefits, I suspect they wouldn’t come in the first place. .
People don’t need benefits, they need an incentive to work i.e a living wage, affordable rents and lower taxes. The Lib/Lab/Con can’t have it both ways, either they want uncontrolled immigration or they want Britain’s long term unemployed back into work. Britain’s unemployment benefit is one of the lowest in the EU at £71 per week. At £4bn pa that’s a fraction of the £11bn overseas aid budget and is significantly lower than the ‘in work’ benefits on offer to migrant workers. I think we can all see where this governments priority lies.
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I’m sure the system can be improved but politicians in all of the main parties have an ideological campaign to demonize the so called undeserving poor , totally the wrong approach and they all struggle with the truth as far as I can see , keep providing the facts
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Amazing that IDS must feel fairly safe in massaging the figures for clearly ideological purposes yet will make an exact claim for expenses for over £39 for ONE breakfast!
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It’s quite likely the level of fraud is understated and therefore the full cost of fraud and error is also understated. Although as usual politicians have misused the figures the broad story isn’t far from the truth. It would be useful though to consider whether the original aims have been met during the period to 2010.
We cannot go on spending at the current level without giving up something elsewhere as additional taxes seem to deliver very little.
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STOP GIVE AWAY THE PAYEERS MONEY
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Anyone who bothers to check the facts can see in a moment that IDS is scattering lies like confetti – and inflaming the right-wing press – in order to try to make a case for his current hobby-horse. Not only the unemployed – who’d fall over themselves to take a job, if jobs were to be had – but also the poor who are in work, must be castigated, vilified, and made to pay for the sheer greed of bankers and other City types, many of whom will have shared public school and university education (if such it can be called) with some members of this government.
Most of the people receiving benefit are already slogging their guts out, and the rest are still hunting for work; now the money that’s supposed to take them up to enough to live on, is to be increased by considerably less than inflation even while their wages are frozen and food and energy costs soar at 7.6% and above.
And when will there be a Living Wage so that taxpayers don’t have to subsidise companies at all?
With sometimes up to 100 applicants for each job, Enoch needs a reality check!
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You can’t claim tax credits unless you pay tax. I worked with some Lithuanians who, if they’d chosen to pay tax, would’ve been eligible. They chose just to not pay tax, since it worked out about the same. (I say about, because it looked identical but i didn’t run it through a calculator just mental arithmetic with rounding, and on several hundred pounds it might’ve been a few tens.) So it’s hardly going to be targeted by foreigners. What foreigners are going to target is being ‘non-dom for tax purposes’. If you’ve a flat in Lithuania and you’re just working a year abroad because you’re bankrupt because you nursed your dying mother (no benefits for nonsense like that over there) exhausting your savings, then i think you are genuinely non-dom. Unlike certain rich politicians’ donors….
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This is a great comment; it nails the heart of the issue.
Billionaires, non doms, no tax, “blessing to the country”
Corporations (like Vodafone, aided and abetted by the former “incompetents” who ran HMRC), who avoid billions in tax, “blessing to the country”
Working poor, “blight to the country” :- persecution
Benefit scroungers, “blight to the country” :- Jail
LIBOR fraudsters, “blessing to the country” :- No jail
PPI Fraudsters “blessing to the country” :- No Jail
Hector Sants, a regulator with as light a touch as Caspar the ghost….. a blessing to the former brethren at Barclays Bank :- a waste of space, well worth £3m a year to the right fraudster
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I notice the piece on this evening’s news piece on HMV’s apparent demise did not, whilst naming Tesco and Amazon as competitors in the “new market” did not highlight that both are famed for their creative approach to tax… which gives them a “significant” competitive advantage….doooh ??
The news is failing to nail the issue here, Jessops/Comet/HMV all compete with offshore “virtual” companies (Amazon, Tesco etc. etc.) in fact the appalling ignorance of ministers (& opposition) is equally risible, it’s a joke, nobody held to account, no difficult questions.
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I don’t know if your “verdict” is deliberately misleading or just incompetent.
If you compare the spending in one year with the spending in the following year, you find out the increase over 1 year not 2. So it’s not surprising you get 8%. It doesn’t disprove or disprove IDS’ claim of 20% in 2 years but it does make it look quite plausible.
You also claimed to have checked his claim that spending rose 58% ahead of the 2005 election by again looking at a one year increase. Admittedly IDS didn’t explain what period he was referring to but I don’t think any (sensible) person would interpret this as meaning spending increased by that amount in 1 year. It’s more likely he was referring to the increase over the parliament.
So redo your analysis please and publish a correction
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I suggest the knock I.D.Smithites open their eyes and notice how many Romainian benefit tourists are selling the Big Issue in order to be classed as self employed and thus now be able to claim tax credits -millions in tax credits. As for the benefit claiming scroungers in their 2,3 4 5 bedroomed subsidised social housing whose idle kids have left their parents home to likewise live on benefits the hard working lower paid tax payers like myself dont have much sympathy-keep up the good work ………….. an ex Labour supporter.
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